Why would God need a hell?

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Mickiel

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It has become quite clear that you choose to 'read your own meaning' into scripture and world history, I'm sure that poses problems in your everyday life as well. You seem to TRY to intuit things that are not written. The sooner you accept the Holy Bible for exactly what it says, the better for you.

Well I do read my own meaning into scripture, my own understanding, its all I have. I use what I have to use. I use all my knowledge, all my experience, all my sufferings, all my intelligence And all my study; and when the spirit visits on occasion I use what I learn from that. My problems help me to understand scripture.

I try to intuit things that are there, things written. And each passing year in my life, I understand more. And the more I understand, the much more I see I need to understand.
 

Mickiel

New member
Scripture never asserts the soul is immortal and immune to destruction - you are reading your own ideas into scripture. The result is a contradiction, and you ask questions like "why would God need a hell?" If you sought to understand the scriptural teaching on the subject rather than how you can bend the scriptures to match pre-concieved notions, there would be no contradiction.

Furthermore, the passage in question is clear what hell signifies: destruction of body and soul. Other passages speak of hell as the second death. Never does it speak of hell as a mere cleansing or some such thing.



I disagree and encourage the reading of these articles;

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

http://www.thehypertexts.com/How many tines is hell mentioned in the Bible.htm
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Furthermore, the passage in question is clear what hell signifies: destruction of body and soul.

Scripture never asserts the soul is immortal and immune to destruction - you are reading your own ideas into scripture.

Not at all surprised to see you claiming eisegesis is afoot. Once one denies the Trinity then there is no end to your slipping into even more error. :AMR:

Two blind men having a conversation requiring actual sight. Sigh.

AMR
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Not at all surprised to see you claiming eisegesis is afoot. Once one denies the Trinity then there is no end to your slipping into even more error. :AMR:

AMR

Oh please. Eisegesis is the bread and butter of Trinitarian Theology. At any rate, the Trinity isn't really relevant to this topic. So what is your position on this matter? You appear to disagree with what the scriptures plainly teach: that hell is the second death where body and soul are destroyed.
 

Mickiel

New member
If you disagree then put forth the relevant scriptures that lead you to think that the soul is immortal and indestructible.

Sure, here's a few, I am about to go to bed so I'll post more tomorrow;

Heb. 9:27, "And it is appointed " Once" for men to die, after this the judgment." We only have to die one time, not twice. All the dead humans who are resurrected are not going to be appointed again to die.

Eccle. 12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return to God, who gave it." There's the separation of body and soul, when we die, our spirit, or soul, does not lay in the grave with the body, the soul is returned to God. Because its two different things.

Acts 7:59, " And they stoned Stephen, who called upon God, saying, Lord Jesus receive my Spirit." Here we see them actually killing Stephen's body, but his soul was not killed along with him, Jesus took his soul, or spirit. They both did not die.

When the body dies, that fulfills the " We are appointed once to die." And everyone who dies, their soul leaves their body. And goes to heaven.

Even Jesus, in Luke 23:46 was about to die, he said " Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit." So a dead human body no longer has a spirit IN them.

In 1 Pet. 3:4 it hints that the spirit in man is not corruptible.

Once we have died, the corruption ends there, as does the mortality. When we are resurrected, in 1 Corinth. 15:52-54, The trump will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed, this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality. The Spirit or the soul will be automatically raised immortal.

It says death will be swallowed up in victory, " Oh death, where is thy sting? There will be no more death ; and there has NEVER been a death in eternity as of yet that I know of, and there will be no more death after the resurrection. Rev. 21:4-5 God himself states there will be no more death, there will not be humans put to eternal death, God said those things will pass away. In chapter 20:14 death has already been killed, it states very clearly that this IS the second death. And that means that the second death, is the death of the first death, the first once appointed time to die, is the first death, the throwing of death into the fire, is the death of the first death. So the second death is the death of the first death. And God has the souls in his hands each death.

I'll post more tomorrow.

Peace.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Like JWs you assume many things that are quite erroneous, e.g., Arianism, annihilationism. Why not just join them and be done with it?

As used in Scripture the words "destroy," "destruction," "perish" etc. never signify cessation of existence.

Sinners as well as saints will continue to exist forever, Eccl. 12:7; Matt. 25:46; Rom. 2:8-10; Rev. 14:11; 20:10.

The wicked will suffer eternal punishment, which means that they will be forever conscious of a pain which they will recognize as their just desert, and therefore will not be annihilated, (see verses above).

There will be degrees in the punishment of the wicked, while extinction of being or consciousness admits of no degrees, but constitutes a punishment that is alike for all, Luke 12:47,48; Rom. 2:12.

Annihilation is contrary to all analogy. God does not annihilate His work, however much He may change its form. The Scripture idea of death has nothing in common with annihilation. Life and death are exact opposites in Scripture. If death means simply the cessation of being or consciousness, life must mean only the continuation of these; but as a matter of fact it means much more than that, see Rom. 8:6; I Tim. 4:8; I John 3:14.

The term life has a spiritual connotation, and so has the word death. Man is spiritually dead before he falls a prey to physical death, but this does not involve a loss of being or consciousness, Eph. 2:1,2; I Tim. 5:6; Col. 2:13; Rev. 3:1.

Annihilation can hardly be called a punishment, since this implies a consciousness of pain and ill-desert, while, when existence terminates, consciousness also ceases. It might at most be said that the dread of annihilation would be a punishment, but this punishment would not be commensurate with the transgression. And naturally the dread of a man who never had within him the spark of immortality, will never equal that of him who has eternity in his heart, Eccl. 3:11.

It often happens that people consider the extinction of being and of consciousness a very desirable thing, when they grow tired of life. For these such a punishment would be in reality a blessing. And punishment, retributive punishment, is what is called for by God. Annihilationism admits of no degrees of punishment as all transgressors are punished exactly alike. This contradicts Luke 12:47-48; Romans 2:12. Indeed, the extinction of consciousness is not regarded by sinful men as an evil, but a good.

If you are advocating conditional immortality, in teaching that the extinction of consciousness is the eternal death of Scripture, this implies that the continuance of consciousness is the eternal life. But mere consciousness is not happiness. Judas was conscious, certainly, when he hung himself, even if he is not now. But he was not happy. You substitute the doctrine of the eternal sleep of the soul, for that of its eternal punishment. This shows that the two things are not equivalents. When Mirabeau lay dying (Count Mirabeau: An Historical Novel), he cried passionately for opium, that he might never awake. The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse. “Sight, and hearing, and all earthly good, without justice and virtue,” says Plato, “are the greatest of evils, if life be immortal; but not so great, if the bad man lives a very short time.”

According to your view, the logical conclusion is that brutes are punished. In losing consciousness at death, the animal like the man incurs an everlasting loss. Annihilationists contend that the substance of punishment is in the result, and not in its being felt or experienced. If a transgressor is put out of conscious existence, the result is an everlasting loss to him, though he does not know it. But the same thing is true of a brute. And if the former is punished, the latter is also.

If you are advocating conditional immortality, in teaching that the extinction of consciousness is the eternal death of Scripture, this implies that the continuance of consciousness is the eternal life. But mere consciousness is not happiness. Judas was conscious, certainly, when he hung himself, even if he is not now. But he was not happy.

I could go on and on, but I think by now my position is quite clear.

AMR
 

Mickiel

New member
The wicked will suffer eternal punishment, which means that they will be forever conscious of a pain which they will recognize as their just desert, and therefore will not be annihilated, (see verses above).

There will be degrees in the punishment of the wicked, while extinction of being or consciousness admits of no degrees, but constitutes a punishment that is alike for all, Luke 12:47,48; Rom. 2:12.

AMR



Lets try an imagine the degrees of continual conscious punishing. You know, just to get a mental picture of this eternal conscious pain pit. Maybe the angels God dispatches to guard the eternal pit, will be the ones to administer the different degrees of horror.

Maybe the first 5,000 years of hell will be " Whipping with the lash.

Then the next 7,000 years of pain and hurt will be starvation, you know, don't feed the super sufferers.

Then the next million years of this untold merciless evil, maybe just let the angels beat them with their hands.

Hey, maybe the angelic administers of this verity can use their holy talents and really think of some original punishing, you know, so the sufferers won't get bored; lets start cutting off parts of their bodies in little small inch sections, you know, just enough to keep them alive.

Now for the next trillion years, how about pulling their hairs out!
Then the next 645,987,231 years, lets just stone them every day.

I know! For the next 777 quadrillion years, lets throw them around like balls, and slam them against each other.

Now then, lets be creative with our punishing; lets make then go blind for just 531,908 thousand years. Then after that, give them their sight back, but cut off their leg!

Cutting off their legs may be a good idea, hey, they could not run or try to get out of hell.

Hey man, after all those incredible years of punishing, these poor super sufferers may have become quite formidable and strong; we'd best ask God to post another legion of angels there; we would not want any of these things getting out, now would we? Some of them may be angry by now.

Those of you who adhere to hell, there is your look at what your hell would be like. Now if you believe this, all I can ask, is what's wrong with you? You believe this insanity?

Its sad. I mean its really sad. The seduction of the Christian mind is stunning!
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Sure, here's a few, I am about to go to bed so I'll post more tomorrow;

Heb. 9:27, "And it is appointed " Once" for men to die, after this the judgment." We only have to die one time, not twice. All the dead humans who are resurrected are not going to be appointed again to die.

This does not say that men were appointed to only die once and nevermore. It is providing a general sequence of events: first they die and then they are judged. The outcome of this judgement is, in turn, either eternal life or death. Furthermore, there are known cases within scripture where this general pattern broken: as with those people who were resurrected like Lazarus. They lived, died, lived again, and died again, and are awaiting judgement.

Eccle. 12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return to God, who gave it." There's the separation of body and soul, when we die, our spirit, or soul, does not lay in the grave with the body, the soul is returned to God. Because its two different things.

They can be separated, but they are naturally found together. We are even promised new bodies (1 Cor 15). This further more does not establish your idea that the soul is immortal and immune to destruction.

Acts 7:59, " And they stoned Stephen, who called upon God, saying, Lord Jesus receive my Spirit." Here we see them actually killing Stephen's body, but his soul was not killed along with him, Jesus took his soul, or spirit. They both did not die.

Indeed, no one is suggesting that if only the body is destroyed that therefore the soul is destroyed too. But hell destroys body AND soul.

When the body dies, that fulfills the " We are appointed once to die." And everyone who dies, their soul leaves their body. And goes to heaven.

The soul goes to await judgement.

Even Jesus, in Luke 23:46 was about to die, he said " Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit." So a dead human body no longer has a spirit IN them.

Not in the dead body, though we will receive a new one ultimately.

In 1 Pet. 3:4 it hints that the spirit in man is not corruptible.

1 Pet 3:4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.

This doesn't say anything of the sort. Furthermore, if the soul were incorruptible -how is it that people sin?

Once we have died, the corruption ends there, as does the mortality. When we are resurrected, in 1 Corinth. 15:52-54, The trump will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed, this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality. The Spirit or the soul will be automatically raised immortal.

Read everything in that chapter for the full context. Earlier in the chapter he clarifies what he means when he speaks of the resurrection here:

1 Cor 15:20-26 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.​

The resurrection he speaks of in this chapter is the resurrection of those who belong to Christ. These will be raised at the sound of the last trumpet and given new bodies. This is not everyone, only the faithful.

We further more know that this event occurs at the "last trumpet" - which is found in more detail in Revelations. There are seven trumpets in total (Rev 8:2). It begins to speak of the angel with the seventh trumpet in Rev 10, and the trumpet is sounded in Rev 11. Then we are told about the dragon, the woman, and the beasts. Then we get to Rev 14 where it speaks of Christ and the 144,000. These are the first fruits, those who did not defile themselves with woman. These are pure people who have been redeemed.

After this, then it goes into the harvesting of the earth, the final plagues of God's wrath, the seven bowls of God's wrath, the fall of Babylon, and then the battle between Christ and the kings of the earth.

All of this brings us to Rev 20 where we there are 1000 years of peace. During this period we see the first resurrection:


Rev 20:4-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.​

So then, those of the first resurrection, those spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 15, are in fact free from the second death - no worries there.

However, then we come to the judgement of Satan of his angels and of the rest of mankind. The second resurrection.

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

So then, those who are part of the second resurrection are judged. Depending upon how they are judged, for good or for ill, they will either be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed - the second death - or else go on to eternal life with God in the new heaven and new earth. The last to be cast into hell is hades and death.

So then, by clarifying the fact that there are multiple resurrections and which one Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor 15, we find that your cited passage does not corroborate the idea that there is no hell/second death.
 
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csuguy

Well-known member
Like JWs you assume many things that are quite erroneous, e.g., Arianism, annihilationism. Why not just join them and be done with it?

I don't just assume things are erroneous - if I say something is in error it is because I've actually studied these matters and found it to be in error. I'm not anti-tradition, I believe tradition is a great place to start one's studies. However, tradition is not free from error and so one must not be afraid to interrogate it - and shouldn't be terribly surprised to find some errors.

And I'm not going to join the JWs or any such cult just to make things convenient for you.

As used in Scripture the words "destroy," "destruction," "perish" etc. never signify cessation of existence.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This is symbolized in Rev 20 as hades and death, a personification thereof, being cast into the lake of fire after everyone else. It is called the second death. Are you saying that this does not symbolize the cessation of the existence of death? Has Christ failed to truly destroy this enemy?

Sinners as well as saints will continue to exist forever, Eccl. 12:7; Matt. 25:46; Rom. 2:8-10; Rev. 14:11; 20:10.

Not a single one of those passages say that everyone exists forever. Death from which there is no resurrection is an eternal punishment. And we are warned not to fear men who can but destroy the body, but God who can destroy body and soul in hell.

The only passages which suggest an eternal punishment like Satan are those referring to those who receive his mark and worship his image. This is only a fraction of those sent to hell.

The wicked will suffer eternal punishment, which means that they will be forever conscious of a pain which they will recognize as their just desert, and therefore will not be annihilated, (see verses above).

Not every wicked person is promised such a fate. Only those who worship the image of the beast and receive his mark.


There will be degrees in the punishment of the wicked, while extinction of being or consciousness admits of no degrees, but constitutes a punishment that is alike for all, Luke 12:47,48; Rom. 2:12.

Annihilation is contrary to all analogy. God does not annihilate His work, however much He may change its form. The Scripture idea of death has nothing in common with annihilation. Life and death are exact opposites in Scripture. If death means simply the cessation of being or consciousness, life must mean only the continuation of these; but as a matter of fact it means much more than that, see Rom. 8:6; I Tim. 4:8; I John 3:14.

No where in scripture does it say that God does not destroy his work. To the contrary: the Noah's flood was just that. And in creating a new heaven and earth, the old heaven and earth shall pass away. You are basing your theology around false premises.

The term life has a spiritual connotation, and so has the word death. Man is spiritually dead before he falls a prey to physical death, but this does not involve a loss of being or consciousness, Eph. 2:1,2; I Tim. 5:6; Col. 2:13; Rev. 3:1.

So Christ doesn't truly destroy death? Eternal life isn't literal?

Annihilation can hardly be called a punishment, since this implies a consciousness of pain and ill-desert, while, when existence terminates, consciousness also ceases. It might at most be said that the dread of annihilation would be a punishment, but this punishment would not be commensurate with the transgression. And naturally the dread of a man who never had within him the spark of immortality, will never equal that of him who has eternity in his heart, Eccl. 3:11.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It often happens that people consider the extinction of being and of consciousness a very desirable thing, when they grow tired of life. For these such a punishment would be in reality a blessing. And punishment, retributive punishment, is what is called for by God. Annihilationism admits of no degrees of punishment as all transgressors are punished exactly alike. This contradicts Luke 12:47-48; Romans 2:12. Indeed, the extinction of consciousness is not regarded by sinful men as an evil, but a good.

1. The wages of sin are death. They are getting what they have earned when they die.

2. Just because you think someone is worse than another doesn't make it so. Some caused greater damage in their sin, but ultimately they all embraced their sin and refused to repent. They lived selfish evil lives and hurt people in the process, never relenting.

If you are advocating conditional immortality, in teaching that the extinction of consciousness is the eternal death of Scripture, this implies that the continuance of consciousness is the eternal life. But mere consciousness is not happiness. Judas was conscious, certainly, when he hung himself, even if he is not now. But he was not happy. You substitute the doctrine of the eternal sleep of the soul, for that of its eternal punishment. This shows that the two things are not equivalents. When Mirabeau lay dying (Count Mirabeau: An Historical Novel), he cried passionately for opium, that he might never awake. The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse. “Sight, and hearing, and all earthly good, without justice and virtue,” says Plato, “are the greatest of evils, if life be immortal; but not so great, if the bad man lives a very short time.”

You are deviating from the scriptures when you approach hell as a place to pay for every sin in exact proportion to what one did. You are essentially turning hell into an equivalent of Catholic Purgatory. However, the scriptures do not portray hell as a place to pay for every little thing like this. Indeed, this would ultimately suggest that they would get out of hell after their crimes have been paid for through their suffering - which is not biblical. It is called the second death, and scripture says that there will be no escape from it, no further chances. Christ will not die for them again.

Indeed, to speak of eternal punishment is to eliminate the idea that they might pay for their sins this way. Else there would be an end to it. So its not about paying for sin in the sense you suggest. Perhaps we might even go so far as to say that Annihilation is itself a final mercy from God to his rebellious children who have embraced the darkness.

According to your view, the logical conclusion is that brutes are punished. In losing consciousness at death, the animal like the man incurs an everlasting loss. Annihilationists contend that the substance of punishment is in the result, and not in its being felt or experienced. If a transgressor is put out of conscious existence, the result is an everlasting loss to him, though he does not know it. But the same thing is true of a brute. And if the former is punished, the latter is also.

You prefer that these people should experience every bit of pain that they deserve. However, God takes no enjoyment in this. These are his beloved children. And love is greater than justice. So is it hard for you to understand that God would prefer to Annihilate them once and for all than for them to suffer forever?

If you are advocating conditional immortality, in teaching that the extinction of consciousness is the eternal death of Scripture, this implies that the continuance of consciousness is the eternal life. But mere consciousness is not happiness. Judas was conscious, certainly, when he hung himself, even if he is not now. But he was not happy.

The promise of eternal life, in of itself, is not a promise of happiness. Even God has known frustration, anger, and sadness.
 
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Aimiel

Well-known member
Well I do read my own meaning into scripture, my own understanding, its all I have. I use what I have to use. I use all my knowledge, all my experience, all my sufferings, all my intelligence And all my study; and when the spirit visits on occasion I use what I learn from that. My problems help me to understand scripture.

I try to intuit things that are there, things written. And each passing year in my life, I understand more. And the more I understand, the much more I see I need to understand.

God said, "Come, let us reason together." He doesn't want you in the dark. He is the only absolute Truth. Reasoning alone is how Satan got off-track to begin with. Don't follow him.
 

Mickiel

New member
God said, "Come, let us reason together." He doesn't want you in the dark. He is the only absolute Truth. Reasoning alone is how Satan got off-track to begin with. Don't follow him.

God will put his servants into the darkness, for his " Reasoning", again scripture, lets start with Jesus, and his incredible exposure to the darkness in Matt. 4:1 where Jesus was LED into the darkness to face the king of the darkness. Now Jesus prepared himself for this head on walk into the darkness; he fasted 40 days! That's how serious Jesus knew the darkness is. Here we have churches teaching that satan has no power, and here our Lord has to prepare himself. Like Job's exposure to the darkness, Jesus never gave in to it, but it ruffed him up so much, that Angels had to help him after it was over, Matt.4:11. God did not use humans to help Jesus after this, he used Angels! They had to minister to Jesus, the fight was so hard on him.

See this is why I know Adam and Eve had absolutely no chance to overcome satan, and God KNEW that! The devil did not sneak pass the angels and get inside of Eden, he was allowed in. I think SENT in there by God! This was no happenstance thing, it was planned! The young couple had no chance with their exposure to the darkness.

In Eccl. 7:13, " Consider the WORK of God, who can straighten out what God has bent!" Here we have God " Working" to put a human into the darkness. Its part of HIS working on humans. Some bibles render this, " Who can straighten what God has MADE crooked!" In other words, who can pull a human out of the darkness that God has put in there!

Lamentations 3:31-32, " For the Lord will not CAST off forever, though he CAUSES grief, he will eventually have mercy," Which means God will cast a human into the darkness, cause that to happen, but he will eventually bring them out. Moses was raised in the darkness. Paul was exposed to the darkness. We all know Job was seriously confronted into the darkness. It was God who sent satan to Job. Remember God sent angels to comfort Christ after his walk into the darkness. Look at Job 42:11, "All his brethren and all his sisters came to Job and " They comforted him from all the EVIL that the LORD had BROUGHT on him!"

Hey, all I can do is show the scriptures.
 

Mickiel

New member
This does not say that men were appointed to only die once and nevermore. .

Okay you say this does NOT say that men were appointed once to die and never more. This is what the bible says in Heb.9:27, " And it IS appointed unto men ONCE to die, and AFTER that the judgment." It does say that men will only die once; I mean that is clearly what it states! You are thinking its appointed Twice for men to die, which in my view is " Adding to scripture;" your changing one into two. Its your math, not biblical math.

Look at Job 19:26, " And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN my flesh shall I see God." We will be raised in the completely healed flesh , bodies in tact, and THEN changed! God is not going to kill humans again, he's going to destroy their fleshly bodies, and give them a Spirit form.

Why resurrect dead bodies that God has condemned, only to face a judgment in a court, then kill them again? Just leave them dead! What's the use of going through some temporary judging from God that has condemned you while you were already dead? Why send me to court, when I am already sentenced to death? That's what humans would do, God is not human. God IS reason!!
 

Mickiel

New member
You oppose what God's Word says because you're not born again. Repent.



I am not born again, I admit that, but I do not oppose God, that simply is not true. My views on being born again is far different than the Christian view. I view being born again, just as it states in John 3:5-8, again Jesus teaching, " That which is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS now Spirit! Being born again is a total change from flesh to spirit! The human is now a spirit being, no longer flesh. Again Jesus describing what a born again person looks like, in verse 8, " The wind blows where it listeth, and you hear the sound of it, but you cannot tell where it comes from and where its going, SO IT IS to everyone that is born of spirit! In other words, we can't physically see spirit beings! If a human was now born again, according to Jesus, they would not be in the flesh.

Now that's what Jesus taught, of course religion is teaching something totally different.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Like JWs you assume many things that are quite erroneous, e.g., Arianism, annihilationism. Why not just join them and be done with it?

As used in Scripture the words "destroy," "destruction," "perish" etc. never signify cessation of existence.

Sinners as well as saints will continue to exist forever, Eccl. 12:7; Matt. 25:46; Rom. 2:8-10; Rev. 14:11; 20:10.

The wicked will suffer eternal punishment, which means that they will be forever conscious of a pain which they will recognize as their just desert, and therefore will not be annihilated, (see verses above).

There will be degrees in the punishment of the wicked, while extinction of being or consciousness admits of no degrees, but constitutes a punishment that is alike for all, Luke 12:47,48; Rom. 2:12.

Annihilation is contrary to all analogy. God does not annihilate His work, however much He may change its form. The Scripture idea of death has nothing in common with annihilation. Life and death are exact opposites in Scripture. If death means simply the cessation of being or consciousness, life must mean only the continuation of these; but as a matter of fact it means much more than that, see Rom. 8:6; I Tim. 4:8; I John 3:14.

The term life has a spiritual connotation, and so has the word death. Man is spiritually dead before he falls a prey to physical death, but this does not involve a loss of being or consciousness, Eph. 2:1,2; I Tim. 5:6; Col. 2:13; Rev. 3:1.

Annihilation can hardly be called a punishment, since this implies a consciousness of pain and ill-desert, while, when existence terminates, consciousness also ceases. It might at most be said that the dread of annihilation would be a punishment, but this punishment would not be commensurate with the transgression. And naturally the dread of a man who never had within him the spark of immortality, will never equal that of him who has eternity in his heart, Eccl. 3:11.

It often happens that people consider the extinction of being and of consciousness a very desirable thing, when they grow tired of life. For these such a punishment would be in reality a blessing. And punishment, retributive punishment, is what is called for by God. Annihilationism admits of no degrees of punishment as all transgressors are punished exactly alike. This contradicts Luke 12:47-48; Romans 2:12. Indeed, the extinction of consciousness is not regarded by sinful men as an evil, but a good.

If you are advocating conditional immortality, in teaching that the extinction of consciousness is the eternal death of Scripture, this implies that the continuance of consciousness is the eternal life. But mere consciousness is not happiness. Judas was conscious, certainly, when he hung himself, even if he is not now. But he was not happy. You substitute the doctrine of the eternal sleep of the soul, for that of its eternal punishment. This shows that the two things are not equivalents. When Mirabeau lay dying (Count Mirabeau: An Historical Novel), he cried passionately for opium, that he might never awake. The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse. “Sight, and hearing, and all earthly good, without justice and virtue,” says Plato, “are the greatest of evils, if life be immortal; but not so great, if the bad man lives a very short time.”

According to your view, the logical conclusion is that brutes are punished. In losing consciousness at death, the animal like the man incurs an everlasting loss. Annihilationists contend that the substance of punishment is in the result, and not in its being felt or experienced. If a transgressor is put out of conscious existence, the result is an everlasting loss to him, though he does not know it. But the same thing is true of a brute. And if the former is punished, the latter is also.

If you are advocating conditional immortality, in teaching that the extinction of consciousness is the eternal death of Scripture, this implies that the continuance of consciousness is the eternal life. But mere consciousness is not happiness. Judas was conscious, certainly, when he hung himself, even if he is not now. But he was not happy.

I could go on and on, but I think by now my position is quite clear.

AMR

So in your view, if a man lives a completely sin filled life, even doing unspeakable things, he will receive eternal conscious suffering ? And that is God's will, that 80 years of sin on earth equate to eternal punishment ? And that's your God ?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
not to speak for AMR, but sure

and the quantity or severity of the sin in which he engages doesn't have anything to do with it

just the rejection of Christ

that's the one action that will earn him his deserved consequence
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
not to speak for AMR, but sure

and the quantity or severity of the sin in which he engages doesn't have anything to do with it

just the rejection of Christ

that's the one action that will earn him his deserved consequence

So a man that rejects Christ for 80 years or so, will get eternal conscience torment and punishment ?
 
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