WHY DID MESSIAH HAVE TO DIE?

intojoy

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"Why did Messiah have to die?" Peter's objection to the revelation that Messiah had to die (Mathew 16:22-23 and John 6:61-64)

And

"The unity of Believers"
Paul's teaching on unity of believers (Romans 15:1- 7)


Paul in chapter 15 of the book of Romans quotes Psalm 69. Paul tells us we aught to follow the example of Messiah's suffering by enduring one another's wrong doings. And the gospels record the reaction of the disciples concerning the coming death and suffering of Messiah.

Peter was rebuked by Yeshua sharply when Peter thought that by defending Messiah he would be honoring Messiah. Yeshua calls Peter the devil. When Yeshua explained to the disciples that He was going to suffer and die Peter stood up and protested it. Only after God opened Peter's eyes could he come to the understanding of the truth about Messiah's death. The Father had to first draw Peter.

In order for us to embrace Messiah the Father must draw us. Otherwise we would be like Peter and say the same thing, "far be it from me, I would die for you etc."

Yeshua asked Peter; What would be the case if Messiah did not come? If the Messiah did not come down what would have happened?

The answer is that redemption would not have been possible for any of us.

So why did Messiah have to die? There are two reasons.

Number one is because we are beings that have been created that need love. We are individuals that need to experience unconditional, all accepting love.

Paul quotes Psalm 69 in his book of Romans 15:1-7. Paul is teaching us to follow in Yeshua's footsteps of bearing the insults of His enemies by coming to our world as pictured in Psalm 69. Why did He come and bear these insults?

Because we need love. We need not only to give it but to experience it.

The problem is none of us can give the kind of love we all need because all of our love is ultimately conditional in some regard and it also is self serving - we need to receive a love that we can just receive all of it from.

Only one can give that kind of love, and that is God. Why? Because He embodies all of love - God is love and therefore God does not need love. Thus He can fully give love.

So why does Messiah come? Because we crave love. And we need love in order to go on in our lives. And we also need to be ones who can give love but we can't give it and therefore we can't receive that kind of love from each other. So where can we get that kind of love? We have to get it from the one who is love and that is God. But we can't get it from Him unless we are united to Him. That's how we receive it. We have to be in Messiah as it were. And how do we get in Messiah? He must die for us.

If He does not do that (what Peter objected to), then we can not get what we need in order to be the kind of human beings God created us to be. And thus we are without love in the world. And we are of all people's most miserable.

But because Messiah came as a servant, because He gave His life a ransom for many, because He can provide the atonement that can unite us to the One who is love we can for the first time receive the kind of love we all crave. And because of His Spirit that dwells within us we can be empowered to give the kind of love we all need to receive from each other at least in small kind of way.

But it is not just this personal need for love that we have. The second reason Messiah had to die is that we have a judicial need, legal need. We stand guilty before God. And something has to remedy it.

All debt has a price. Here's an illustration; If you walk into someone's home and you knock over their lamp, you are in debt to whoever owns the lamp. Only one of two things can happen. You are going to go out and buy a new lamp in which case you have born the debt for that lamp. Or the owner can say I forgive you, you don't have to pay for a new lamp. In which case the owner bears the debt for the lamp. They're either going to go without light in that part of the home and suffer without light or pay for a new lamp from their own pockets. In either case wrong doing incurs a debt and the debt is always paid.

That's what forgiveness is about. When you forgive another person you are telling the other person "I will pay the debt, you do not have to pay the debt."

When we do not forgive others and we become vengeful or retaliatory or even rejoice in their suffering we are making them pay the debt. And they are experiencing the suffering for their wrong doing.

Someone pays the debt for wrong doing. Either the wrong doer pays the debt because we do not let them off the hook, or we pay the debt because we do. In either case debt paying incurs suffering and a great deal of agony. Inside we churn for what we just experienced. We forgive the individual but it does not necessarily take away the pain that we experience.

Just as Messiah went to the cross, for He provided forgiveness for us why? Because He bore our debt and He suffered our debt He paid it so that we don't have to pay for it ourselves.

Why Messiah had to die.

Again firstly why Christ had to die: He became a servant suffering as He did because we need love and without Him suffering we can not be united to the God of the universe who is love.

And secondly we've incurred a debt by our wrong doing. And someone is going to pay for our debt. And if Messiah's debt paying is not applicable to your sin, you will pay for that debt. And it is a debt that cannot be paid off in time. And that is why Yeshua tells us it is a place of eternal separation from the one to whom we are indebted but if Messiah has paid the debt for us and we've received that debt payment then we no longer need to bear the debt for ourselves and for all of eternity we will be forgiven and therefore united to Him.

Why unity, how is unity amongst us.

Paul is telling us in Romans 15 that we are to be one. And being one with Messiah means to follow His example of enduring all of those insults from those that opposed Him in Psalm 69.

And Paul uses that to say to we, who are ones who love one another, we who are ones who are brothers and sisters in Messiah, we who are ones who are children of God together, are to learn from that example of debt paying, of owning all of that stuff from one another that we would glorify God.

Because if people see individuals that truly love one another and bear one another's burdens they will glorify God.



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Elia

Well-known member
"Why did Messiah have to die?"

Bs"d

Because he was a false messiah, who failed in fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

On top of that he as a man claimed to be God, thereby leading the masses into idolatry.

For the finer details look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

Caino

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Banned
Bs"d

Because he was a false messiah, who failed in fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

On top of that he as a man claimed to be God, thereby leading the masses into idolatry.

For the finer details look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

The concept of a Jewish Messiah (to match the exaggerated saga of King David) that evolved in Judaism, was erroneous. Jesus was the Son of God, he could never be the Jewish Messiah as that concept was born out of the false pride of an arrogant sect of religio-nationalist Zionist who redacted the entire history of the so called Israelites in Babylon. The exaggerated history of these false prophets can be found in the Old Testament.

However Jesus did in some ways build his teaching on top of those expectations, but notice he didn't go around claiming to be the Messiah, he let people believe what they needed to believe as a kind of bridge to the future as he also knew the Jews would be un-chosen after their final rejection of Gods Son.

* The idea of a Jewish Messiah of battle did grow out of the hazy predictions of the coming Son, but the kingdom was a worldwide and a spiritual brotherhood, not material Israel running the world.

* Eventually the original, pre-cross, good news gospel will subdue the world after which those old prophecies will make more sense but the false ones never will for the simple fact that they are false.
 

Caino

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Banned
Also, Jesus elected to pass through the death experience like he passed through the life experience, it was the Fathers will that he do so. Man is called to pass through death, but now we have a God who has also done it. He could have simply vanished and returned to his rightful place in haven but the Father had further plans for the Son.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
...he also knew the Jews would be un-chosen after their final rejection of Gods Son.

No longer chosen? Not true.

Thus says the LORD: "If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them." (Jeremiah 33:25-26)​

God will have mercy on Israel.
 

Caino

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Banned
No longer chosen? Not true.

Thus says the LORD: "If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them." (Jeremiah 33:25-26)​

God will have mercy on Israel.

Those were the old racist ideas, the Jews were a mixture of different people anyway. They were always more of a nationalist political group. Jesus came for ALL the world, not just an arrogant few suffering from the pig headedness of the chosen people delusion.


Galatians 3:28

…27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
 

God's Truth

New member
No longer chosen? Not true.

Thus says the LORD: "If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them." (Jeremiah 33:25-26)​

God will have mercy on Israel.

God has mercy on all who turn to Him in repentance and faith in Jesus.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.


God does not save people according to their blood relations.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
 

intojoy

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Banned
Bs"d

Because he was a false messiah, who failed in fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

On top of that he as a man claimed to be God, thereby leading the masses into idolatry.

For the finer details look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

Hehe


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God's Truth

New member
"Why did Messiah have to die?" Peter's objection to the revelation that Messiah had to die (Mathew 16:22-23 and John 6:61-64)

And

"The unity of Believers"
Paul's teaching on unity of believers (Romans 15:1- 7)


Paul in chapter 15 of the book of Romans quotes Psalm 69. Paul tells us we aught to follow the example of Messiah's suffering by enduring one another's wrong doings. And the gospels record the reaction of the disciples concerning the coming death and suffering of Messiah.

Peter was rebuked by Yeshua sharply when Peter thought that by defending Messiah he would be honoring Messiah. Yeshua calls Peter the devil. When Yeshua explained to the disciples that He was going to suffer and die Peter stood up and protested it. Only after God opened Peter's eyes could he come to the understanding of the truth about Messiah's death. The Father had to first draw Peter.

In order for us to embrace Messiah the Father must draw us. Otherwise we would be like Peter and say the same thing, "far be it from me, I would die for you etc."

Yeshua asked Peter; What would be the case if Messiah did not come? If the Messiah did not come down what would have happened?

The answer is that redemption would not have been possible for any of us.

So why did Messiah have to die? There are two reasons.

Number one is because we are beings that have been created that need love. We are individuals that need to experience unconditional, all accepting love.

Paul quotes Psalm 69 in his book of Romans 15:1-7. Paul is teaching us to follow in Yeshua's footsteps of bearing the insults of His enemies by coming to our world as pictured in Psalm 69. Why did He come and bear these insults?

Because we need love. We need not only to give it but to experience it.

The problem is none of us can give the kind of love we all need because all of our love is ultimately conditional in some regard and it also is self serving - we need to receive a love that we can just receive all of it from.

Only one can give that kind of love, and that is God. Why? Because He embodies all of love - God is love and therefore God does not need love. Thus He can fully give love.

So why does Messiah come? Because we crave love. And we need love in order to go on in our lives. And we also need to be ones who can give love but we can't give it and therefore we can't receive that kind of love from each other. So where can we get that kind of love? We have to get it from the one who is love and that is God. But we can't get it from Him unless we are united to Him. That's how we receive it. We have to be in Messiah as it were. And how do we get in Messiah? He must die for us.

If He does not do that (what Peter objected to), then we can not get what we need in order to be the kind of human beings God created us to be. And thus we are without love in the world. And we are of all people's most miserable.

But because Messiah came as a servant, because He gave His life a ransom for many, because He can provide the atonement that can unite us to the One who is love we can for the first time receive the kind of love we all crave. And because of His Spirit that dwells within us we can be empowered to give the kind of love we all need to receive from each other at least in small kind of way.

But it is not just this personal need for love that we have. The second reason Messiah had to die is that we have a judicial need, legal need. We stand guilty before God. And something has to remedy it.

All debt has a price. Here's an illustration; If you walk into someone's home and you knock over their lamp, you are in debt to whoever owns the lamp. Only one of two things can happen. You are going to go out and buy a new lamp in which case you have born the debt for that lamp. Or the owner can say I forgive you, you don't have to pay for a new lamp. In which case the owner bears the debt for the lamp. They're either going to go without light in that part of the home and suffer without light or pay for a new lamp from their own pockets. In either case wrong doing incurs a debt and the debt is always paid.

That's what forgiveness is about. When you forgive another person you are telling the other person "I will pay the debt, you do not have to pay the debt."

When we do not forgive others and we become vengeful or retaliatory or even rejoice in their suffering we are making them pay the debt. And they are experiencing the suffering for their wrong doing.

Someone pays the debt for wrong doing. Either the wrong doer pays the debt because we do not let them off the hook, or we pay the debt because we do. In either case debt paying incurs suffering and a great deal of agony. Inside we churn for what we just experienced. We forgive the individual but it does not necessarily take away the pain that we experience.

Just as Messiah went to the cross, for He provided forgiveness for us why? Because He bore our debt and He suffered our debt He paid it so that we don't have to pay for it ourselves.

Why Messiah had to die.

Again firstly why Christ had to die: He became a servant suffering as He did because we need love and without Him suffering we can not be united to the God of the universe who is love.

And secondly we've incurred a debt by our wrong doing. And someone is going to pay for our debt. And if Messiah's debt paying is not applicable to your sin, you will pay for that debt. And it is a debt that cannot be paid off in time. And that is why Yeshua tells us it is a place of eternal separation from the one to whom we are indebted but if Messiah has paid the debt for us and we've received that debt payment then we no longer need to bear the debt for ourselves and for all of eternity we will be forgiven and therefore united to Him.

Why unity, how is unity amongst us.

Paul is telling us in Romans 15 that we are to be one. And being one with Messiah means to follow His example of enduring all of those insults from those that opposed Him in Psalm 69.

And Paul uses that to say to we, who are ones who love one another, we who are ones who are brothers and sisters in Messiah, we who are ones who are children of God together, are to learn from that example of debt paying, of owning all of that stuff from one another that we would glorify God.

Because if people see individuals that truly love one another and bear one another's burdens they will glorify God.



Sent from my iPhone using TOL

You sound much confused in some things you said here, but what stands out the most to me right now is that you put down people all the time here, which makes you a contradicter of your own words and beliefs.
 

intojoy

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Banned
Note: personal pronoun - "salvation cometh" in Hebrew - "Yeshua cometh" HIS reward is with Him and HIS recompense is with Him.

Chapter 62:11,12 are part of chapter 63:1-6.

What was announced in 62:10-12 is now spelled out in 63:1-6

Isaiah has been praying, Angels have been praying for Israel's final restoration.

Isaiah now is given a vision of the second coming of the Messiah.

As he looks to the east a question and answer series commences.

A very graphic individual is seen coming from Bozrah or in our time, modern day Jordan.
(Most commentators stick to revelation, Ezekiel and Zachariah and ignore other Old Testament passages dealing with the second coming).

Who is He that speaks in righteousness ready to save?

God

Why is there reduce redness in His garments?

Rev 19:13 (most commentators claim the blood on the Messiah in Rev 19:13 is His own blood shed for our sins however they ignore the answer given here as to why His garments are stained with blood): He has come from the trampling of the nations which He has killed has stained His garments with blood.
Micah 2:12 pinpoints Bozrah as the Jews hiding place from antichrist and Jeremiah 49:12-13 it was in Bozrah where the antichrist has gathered his armies to destroy the Jews in hiding.

The bible only sets Armageddon as the gathering place of the armies of antichrist but no fighting takes place there.

8 STAGES OF THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON

(1) antichrist leaves Babylon assembling his armies Rev 16:12-16 Joel 3:9-11 Psalm 2, (2) Babylon is destroyed Isaiah 13-14 Jeremiah 50-51, Rev 18 (3) the attack and taking of Jerusalem Zac 12:2-3, 14:1-2 (4) the armies of antichrist coming against Bozrah Jer 49:12-13 (5) regeneration of Israel Hosea 5:15-6:3 (6) second coming of Christ to Bozrah Isaiah 53:1-9 Psalm 79-80 Isaiah 64 (7) fighting going back to Jerusalem Joel 3:12-13 (8) the victory ascent on the mount of olives Zac 14:3-5.

Vs 4: we see the fulfillment of chapter chapter 62:12.

Vs 5: Christ will fight alone.

Vs 6: the death of the enemies.

However the clear teaching of scripture is that the second coming cannot happen until the people of Israel pray for His return.


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Elia

Well-known member
Those were the old racist ideas, the Jews were a mixture of different people anyway. They were always more of a nationalist political group. Jesus came for ALL the world, not just an arrogant few suffering from the pig headedness of the chosen people delusion.

Bs"d

So you call the Hebrew Bible and the prophets there in "delusional" and "racist"?

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

Elia

Well-known member
The concept of a Jewish Messiah (to match the exaggerated saga of King David) that evolved in Judaism, was erroneous. Jesus was the Son of God, he could never be the Jewish Messiah as that concept was born out of the false pride of an arrogant sect of religio-nationalist Zionist who redacted the entire history of the so called Israelites in Babylon. The exaggerated history of these false prophets can be found in the Old Testament.

Bs"d

So you don't believe in the Tanach, for Christians the OT.

Then there is nothing to talk about.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs"d

So you call the Hebrew Bible and the prophets there in "delusional" and "racist"?

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

How do you obey Moses? You have no temple/tent and no blood offering.

Christians obey Moses. We have a temple/tent and a blood offering.
 

intojoy

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Banned
You sound much confused in some things you said here, but what stands out the most to me right now is that you put down people all the time here, which makes you a contradicter of your own words and beliefs.

H O L
A N I
T N
E. E


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jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Those were the old racist ideas, the Jews were a mixture of different people anyway. They were always more of a nationalist political group. Jesus came for ALL the world, not just an arrogant few suffering from the pig headedness of the chosen people delusion.

So do you believe the Father has disowned his firstborn son? Or do you believe a parent should have unconditional love?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Why is there reduce redness in His garments?

Rev 19:13 (most commentators claim the blood on the Messiah in Rev 19:13 is His own blood shed for our sins...

Why do you believe the word "blood" cannot be literal?
 

Ben Masada

New member
"Why did Messiah have to die?"

Exactly because he was not the Messiah. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Then, the Messiah cannot be an individual as the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. According to Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed one." That's what the Messiah is; the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Jewish People.
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Bs"d

So you call the Hebrew Bible and the prophets there in "delusional" and "racist"?

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

Not the prophets, the priestly governments who mistreated them. And we don't even know how much of their writings were left unmolested.
 

God's Truth

New member
So do you believe the Father has disowned his firstborn son? Or do you believe a parent should have unconditional love?

Love does no harm. Everyone has to love. God is the Father to those who love. Those who do not love will be cast in the lake of fire.
 

God's Truth

New member
Exactly because he was not the Messiah. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Then, the Messiah cannot be an individual as the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. According to Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed one." That's what the Messiah is; the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Jewish People.

Why has Elia and you not answered my questions?

You both condemn Christians for not obeying Moses as the both of you do.

Christians obey Moses.

Where is your tent/temple and your blood sacrifice?
 
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