Who won Battle Royale XII?

[Poly]

Battle Royale XII: Will Unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire?

logos_x vs. PastorKevin


BR XII can be found here.

To discuss this battle go to BRXII Battle talk.

Submit your vote for the winner of this battle and please explain why.

 

[Chileice]

As much as I would like to vote for one of the candidates, I really feel the debate was a draw. Both presented their evidence, one based largely on "orthodox" interpretations of Scripture and one based on a more historical look at early interpretations of Scripture and how orthodox interpretations "contradict" each other. Neither one really gave a clear refutation of the other one's argument. They basically put the onus on each other to "prove" what they were saying was true or what the other was saying is impossible. I don't imagine many minds were swayed in either direction, but I do imagine that all who read the debate will cogitate on the ideas for a while to come.

 

[novice]

Hmmmm, logos only posted about 2 rounds in a 4 round battle how could anyone in their right mind cast a vote for that? :think:

 

[WandererInFog]

I'd actually also have call this one a draw. Each side presented a case ultimately based upon a certain translation/interpretation of a handful of terms. Each showed how their view logically follows from that interpretation, but I don't think either side ultimately presented evidence that confirmed their interpretation/translation of those terms or refuted the other side.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I would have to go with Pastor Kevin largelt because of Round 4. In round 4, Logos said many times words to the effect of "I tried to show you where the Greek was wrong and you just didn't get it." PastorKevin had responded to Logos's Greek arguments and was able to demonstraight that the Bibles we have today that translate eternal as eternal are accurate translations. Instead of trying to come up with other sources to support his (Logos) argument about translation he seemed to decide that PastorKevin was just to stuborn. In general, Logos's round 4 post was very week from a debate point of view.

PastorKevins round 4 post was a good summary of his point of view but left some of Logos's questions and points from round 4 un-answered. However, PastorKevein had a GREAT analysis of 1 Corinthians 15, particularlly the all in all pharse. Good job.

Overall, the debate was well done but I give the nod to the Pastor.

Stephen and I have had some spirited discusions in the past and I hope we will continue to into the future. Well done Stephen!

I like PastorKevins story telling and his ability to explain scripture. Well done Kevin!

 

[Shalom]

PK is a natural teacher you can tell that is his gift. Both of them did a good job but I think PK won the debate.

 

[Bill Clinton]

I am not sure who won the BR XII but I can tell you that I SURE HOPE logos_x is right.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Neither won. They both lost.

logos_x believes that the lake of fire is not the end of unbelievers, but that they shall be saved afterwards.
PastorKevin believes that the lake of fire is continual and everlasting torture for unbelievers who will be granted an eternal life of pain and torment, which is a Greek myth, not a Biblical truth.

In the end, the unbelievers shall be consumed completely by the lake of fire, and that will be the end of them.

 

[Redfin]

Logos won because he demonstrated that Bible doctrines are not established by a "show me a verse that says..." approach, but by exegeting principles from the overall tenor and meaning of the Scriptures as a whole, while not forgetting that translations have faults, and the original meanings of words must be taken into account.

 

[Chileice]

Neither won. They both lost.

logos_x believes that the lake of fire is not the end of unbelievers, but that they shall be saved afterwards.
PastorKevin believes that the lake of fire is continual and everlasting torture for unbelievers who will be granted an eternal life of pain and torment, which is a Greek myth, not a Biblical truth.

In the end, the unbelievers shall be consumed completely by the lake of fire, and that will be the end of them.

They both lost because they don't agree with YOUR idea? That doesn't make sense. That is not what debates are about. If the debate had included you then you could have presented your ideas in a coherent way for people to make a decision. But to say they both lost because they don't agree with you is disrespectful of both men and the time and effort they put into the debate to give us some new insights on the subject.

 

[Servo]

If the debate is about God's Word and what it says, PK won hands down.

 

[Aimiel]

The debate was the issue of eternal torment, clearly understood by Christians to be sound doctrine, defended quite admirably by Pastor Kevin. Truth wins!!! :the_wave:

 

[genuineoriginal]

They both lost because they don't agree with YOUR idea? That doesn't make sense. That is not what debates are about. If the debate had included you then you could have presented your ideas in a coherent way for people to make a decision. But to say they both lost because they don't agree with you is disrespectful of both men and the time and effort they put into the debate to give us some new insights on the subject.

Maybe you should look at the rules for the Battle Royales here.

My assessment that both lost stands. The only thing missing is a third choice to the poll of "neither, both, or draw."

 

[Aimiel]

GenuineOriginal,

Maybe you need to understand what a debate is. It isn't who's right or wrong, but who does a better job of defending their position. It's obvious from the thread that PK won; though, admittedly, he does have the 'might' that goes with being 'right' too. I wouldn't say that either lost, just that PK made his case and presented it really well and LogosX didn't do nearly as well. I think part of the idea behind making a debate a public forum is to get people to think, by seeing opposite sides of an issue presented and the comparison, contrast and even the sparks will teach many who simply observe. In that regard, both were winners, as is the entire audience.

 

[genuineoriginal]

GenuineOriginal,

Maybe you need to understand what a debate is. It isn't who's right or wrong, but who does a better job of defending their position. It's obvious from the thread that PK won; though, admittedly, he does have the 'might' that goes with being 'right' too. I wouldn't say that either lost, just that PK made his case and presented it really well and LogosX didn't do nearly as well. I think part of the idea behind making a debate a public forum is to get people to think, by seeing opposite sides of an issue presented and the comparison, contrast and even the sparks will teach many who simply observe. In that regard, both were winners, as is the entire audience.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so this is my last post on this matter here.
If the purpose of this debate was to see who could state and defend a position better, then it doesn't matter who won to me. In a debate between the Devil and Rain Man, the Devil would win because he could be much more persuasive.
To me, and this is my opinion, the debates on TOL are to sharpen the reader's ability to discern true doctrine from false doctrine. Because of this, I believe both lost.

If anyone wants to continue on this topic, start a new thread and PM me so I will know about it.

 

[daddyugi]

Judging from a Biblical standpoint, I feel that PastorKevin won that debate. His use of
Scripture to defend his position was well thought out and presented just as well.
I am just a little biased due to the fact that Pastor is my best friend. Pastor showed
that all Scripture is to be taken in context and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.