What to believe?

[walterkirklin]

the wife and I awoke and had one of our deep theological discussions, as we are apt to do at 4 am. We align with the reformed Calvinist tradition, but attend a conservative Assembly of God church. our discussion centered around the question, "How can good people who love Jesus come up with such different theological views?" "Is the Holy Spirit leading people in seemingly different directions?"

examples
The Spanish pastor spoke during offering and basically relayed the standard you have to have faith for a miracle. Obviously our Calvinistic tendencies balked at that. So because we don't have 'enough' faith my wife isn't freed of her anxiety and depression. Maybe our sister in the Lord didn't have 'enough' faith, so her baby was born with microcephaly and died at 8 months. We wonder did Lazarus have 'enough' faith to be raised from the dead? How much faith did the man who Peter healed have? He didn't ask for healing, he asked for gold.

At work yesterday I spoke with a coworker. I mentioned that my cousin, who I haven't seen in 20+ years, recently moved to the area. His wife works at the Four Square church as a women's pastor. The coworker, a fellow believer, asked me how I felt about women as pastors. She related that she visited her elderly mom, they went to Saturday evening services at a church in Santa Cruz. A woman gave the message. My coworker said her husband found out and was aghast. "I can show you several bible passages that prohibit that action." I related to her that we have had women preach at church, but should they ever elect a woman as senior pastor, I would leave. But then talking to a missionary, there are many more women out there serving, evangelizing than men. So should we silence them?

Our son's friend's parents have stopped attending a church because the body has been split. The new pastor is a hyper-Calvinist (even I find that offensive). This family has such an awesome testimony as they were redeemed and rescued from the mormon cult.

I was brought up conservative, independent, FUNdamentalist baptist. Obviously I have mellowed some. But I can remember saying, "Jesus taught one thing, just one, on each subject. We must find that truth and obey it." But here we are, with many divergent views of theological issues. I believe in eternal security, others don't. I believe the trinity, others don't. I believe that the Bible is God's holy word and is relevant today, while others (Jon Pavlovitz) think it was a bunch of guys just doing the best they could with the information that they had but isn't necessarily relevant, so gender identity, homosexuality, and other things are permissible.

Now I am not wanting to be converted to your way of thinking. This is an honest question about the different views within this thing called the kingdom of God.

 

[musterion]

Start at square one, then go from there:

What is the Gospel of salvation?

 

[Daniel1769]

People read too many commentaries and theological books. There are people that read books by people like Joel Osteen, John Macarthur, David Jeremiah, Joyce Meyer, Billy Graham, Johnathan Cahn, etc. yet they haven't read the Bible.

 

[walterkirklin]

Salvation is not the issue. The Spanish church pastor, the hypercalvinist, my coworker, and I can all agree that salvation is by faith in the substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as simply outlined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.
The issue is how do we get such divergent views with God leading and teaching us all through the Holy Spirit?

 

[walterkirklin]

People read too many commentaries and theological books. There are people that read books by people like Joel Osteen, John Macarthur, David Jeremiah, Joyce Meyer, Billy Graham, Johnathan Cahn, etc. yet they haven't read the Bible.

These 'sects' of the Christian faith predate those authors. I honestly believe that John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius both loved Jesus dearly, but their published views are divergent. Martin Luther did a great job reading the Bible and splitting from the Catholic church, but some of his views differ from mine. John MacArthur and Marc Driscoll agree on a great many points but are very different in regards to the gifts of the Holy Sprit, and Driscoll is by no means a slain in the spirit charismatic.

Why, with the indewelling of the Holy Spirit who leads and teaches believers, do we have divergent views? should it not be one faith?

the Judiazers give us a clue. They were after ungodly gain. I can discern absolute falsehood. The problem is that there are good, godly people who love Jesus but disagree on many topics (the nature of faith, miracles, spiritual gifts, baptism, etc...).

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:4-6 (emphasis added)

I yearn for the one faith, all in one accord, believing rightly and praising the Savior.

 

[Daniel1769]

A lot of those people are works salvationists. I'd say those ones are not saved, and therefore it's easy to see why they're wrong on other doctrines. As far as why the legitimately saved ones have differences is I don't know. They're taught them by other people I guess. I was taught doctrines by saved people that I don't agree with now because I read in the Bible that certain positions I held before were incorrect.

 

[musterion]

Salvation is not the issue.

Yes it is exactly the issue. You need to get this part nailed down tight before you start wondering why Christians disagree, or why the Holy Spirit is not leading into harmonious truth all who claim to be Christians.

Example: You have three professing believers.

One says salvation is by grace alone through faith in Christ, and believes submission to water baptism is a required expression of that faith, and so is required to be saved. No water baptism = no salvation.

The other says salvation is by grace alone through faith alone without work. Since this person believes water baptism for salvation makes it a work, he's convinced anyone saying water baptism is required has believed a false gospel and is not saved.

The third person says their disagreement doesn't actually matter. If you just "love Jesus," this person says that's all that matters, no matter what other doctrines you may believe.

All three are 100% committed to their view. But since each view contradicts the others, all three cannot be correct. Either one of them, or two of them, is wrong, and the third correct, but all three cannot be right. Meaning at least two of them are actually not saved and are on his/her way to the Lake of Fire.

Do you agree with that much?

 

[quip]

"How can good people who love Jesus come up with such different theological views?" "Is the Holy Spirit leading people in seemingly different directions?"

Right?!

There's a plethora of Truths out there...picking one is like traversing the cereal aisle at the local Piggly Wiggly. My advice is to just look for pretty packaging and just try your random luck.


Pascal would approve.

 

[Nihilo]

"How can good people who love Jesus come up with such different theological views?" "Is the Holy Spirit leading people in seemingly different directions?"

Half the world's Christians all believe the same thing about the faith, and never wonder about the right theological view, or in which direction the Holy Spirit is leading them. All types of Catholics.

 

[Nick M]

the reformed Calvinist tradition, but attend a conservative Assembly of God church.

Both hell bound is the first thing that came to mind, in less than a hearbeat.

"How can good people who love Jesus come up with such different theological views?" "Is the Holy Spirit leading people in seemingly different directions?"

The Holy Spirit is not leading them. Duh.

 

[Nick M]

Salvation is not the issue.

It most certainly is. And most "Christians" are bound for hell because they do not trust him and do not believe the gospel. Their testimony proves it.

 

[Nick M]

No new posts today?

 

[Squeaky]

STRICT RULES OF BELIEVING


Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
Heb 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Mark 12:30-32
30 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31 "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
John 17:14-19
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
James 1:19-20
19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;
20 for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 16:13-14
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
John 10:1-9
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
II Jn 1:8-11
8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
(NKJ)

xxx The new testament is the law of Christ, and Christ gave us many commandments to obey. If you cant claim it with a verse your in the milk understanding. If you cant dispute it with a verse your in the milk understanding. The meat understanding is done with the verses(The Word Of God). There are rules to believing. Dont think beyond what is written, or dont add one thing to the verses or take one thing away from the verses. And never use your imagination. You dont have to prove anything exists. The only thing you have to do is prove you believe what is written in the new testament. If the Holy Spirit cant quote it, He cant teach it.

Rom 4:17
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed-- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
(NKJ)


John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
(NKJ)

John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
(NKJ)

Matt 5:19-20
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 2:11-12
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
(NKJ)

 

[jamie]

"How can good people who love Jesus come up with such different theological views?" "Is the Holy Spirit leading people in seemingly different directions?"

Paul answered your question this way: "For first of all, when you come together as a church I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you that those who are approved may be recognized among you."
(1 Corinthians 11:18-19)

There are factions because of a lack of disciples. It seems like everyone wants to teach others rather than listen and consider.

 

[beameup]

The issue is how do we get such divergent views with God leading and teaching us all through the Holy Spirit?

The major error of the Church was adopted in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea. That is when "Replacement Theology" was codified as "church doctrine". Today, about 85% of Christendom subscribe to this error. This "error" throws all scripture askew and is the foundation of additional doctrinal error.

 

[Nang]

There is only one Truth revealed by God, and it is found in His Word (the Holy Scriptures).

All souls saved by faith in this Gospel Truth, by the regenerating power of God the Holy Spirit, will proclaim the same message.

And they will recognize each other as brethren constituting the actual/heavenly Church Body of God.

 

[musterion]

The major error of the Church was adopted in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea. That is when "Replacement Theology" was codified as "church doctrine". Today, about 85% of Christendom subscribe to this error. This "error" throws all scripture askew and is the foundation of additional doctrinal error.

Respectfully disagree, just a little; that is one symptom (a major one) among many. The biggest error is described in 2 Tim 1:15.

 

[musterion]

No new posts today?

Apparently another drive by. Such an urgent, grave OP but after a bit of uncomfortable probing...nothing.

 

[beameup]

Respectfully disagree, just a little; that is one symptom (a major one) among many. The biggest error is described in 2 Tim 1:15.

I was under the impression that they had "disavowed" their Christianity due to Nero's persecution,
and so failed to "stand by Paul" in his second imprisonment and subsequent martyrdom.

 

[musterion]

I was under the impression that they had "disavowed" their Christianity due to Nero's persecution,
and so failed to "stand by Paul" in his second imprisonment and subsequent martyrdom.

It was bigger than that. They all abandoned him doctrinally. So within 100 years of his death, the so-called "early church fathers" were all judaized, works-driven sacramentalist wolves, which resulted in what you described above.