What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
- Thread starter john2001
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The law of man does not dictate the law of God. And in the law of God any taking of innocent human life is murder. And since life begins at conception, abortion is murder.
firechyld
New member
No, dude. "Murder" is an English word, and a legal concept. You're simply taking legal lexicon and using it colloquially.
Considering that there is no word in Ancient Hebrew that directly corelates to the legal definition of "murder", your statement is baseless.
You can say that abortion is "wrong" or "sinful" or "evil" or any of those other words that apply to theological constructs, but murder has a very specific definition based on legislation and legal definitions.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
"the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"
The only thing standing between human life and murder is the ignorant idea men can decide what "person" means. Until humans give birth to something other than humans, person means person. I thought "person" isn't supposed to be judged on the basis of race, sex, creed, or age.
The only thing standing between human life and murder is the ignorant idea men can decide what "person" means. Until humans give birth to something other than humans, person means person. I thought "person" isn't supposed to be judged on the basis of race, sex, creed, or age.
Ecumenicist
New member
What about the well being of the woman?
There's biblical precidence for the life and health
and wellbeing of a woman being more important than that
of an unborn child.
I'm not pro-abortion, but the well being of the woman who
carries the child is hardly ever mentioned in these debates.
djm
There's biblical precidence for the life and health
and wellbeing of a woman being more important than that
of an unborn child.
I'm not pro-abortion, but the well being of the woman who
carries the child is hardly ever mentioned in these debates.
djm
Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
The term "human" is more than genetics, it is something else. So, I don't see we can consider an embryo or a fetus to be "human" out of necesssity.
With the advent of human cloning, which has either been done, or will nearly be done, every cell of the human body is potentially another "person".
I am sure that you have some notion of "souls" or "spirits" that you invoke at this stage.
Yet, there are some interesting philosophical connundrums associated with this notion. For example, an embryo splits and becomes identical twins. Or in the reverse case, two fraternal twins fuse to yield a chimera.
In the first case, splitting an embryo seems to make a soul. In the second case, fusing two embryos eliminates a soul.
And, what about the millions of natural failures of fertilized eggs to attach, natural abortions, and still borns. What of the "souls" in this case? Apparently "god" offs more of the unborn than a million abortionists could do.
In short, the idea is bankrupt.
Ultimately it is we who decide when an embryo or fetus is human.
Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
The term "human" is more than genetics, it is something else. So, I don't see we can consider an embryo or a fetus to be "human" out of necesssity.
With the advent of human cloning, which has either been done, or will nearly be done, every cell of the human body is potentially another "person".
I am sure that you have some notion of "souls" or "spirits" that you invoke at this stage.
Yet, there are some interesting philosophical connundrums associated with this notion. For example, an embryo splits and becomes identical twins. Or in the reverse case, two fraternal twins fuse to yield a chimera.
In the first case, splitting an embryo seems to make a soul. In the second case, fusing two embryos eliminates a soul.
And, what about the millions of natural failures of fertilized eggs to attach, natural abortions, and still borns. What of the "souls" in this case? Apparently "god" offs more of the unborn than a million abortionists could do.
In short, the idea is bankrupt.
Ultimately it is we who decide when an embryo or fetus is human.
firechyld
New member
Emphasis on "unlawfully".
As long as abortion is legal, it quite simply does not fit the definition of murder. Plain and simple.
*shrug*
It may still be "wrong", but it's not murder.
Lying is "wrong", but it is not perjury until it's done in a court of law whilst under oath. If you're going to use a legal definition, apply it correctly.
"Personhood" is also a legal construct, at least is our societies.
No, it doesn't. The Hebrew word usually translated as "kill" does not literally translate as "unlawfully kill". Hebrew has a lot of words which translate into English as "kill"... this one is ratsach, which is more usually translated as "slay" or "slayer". The implication of the definition is intentional and premeditated, and it is occasionally used to mean "assassin".
In English, the word "murder" refers to a very specific crime bracket in the homicide category. There's a difference.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
It's still a human embryo and human fetus.
You mean a human isn't cloned from a sheep? Amazing how, even cloned, we know what we will get.
Actually no, I wasn't even goin' that direction, but I'll read your argument against the position I haven't taken anyway.... So don't get mad when my arguments will match my real statements and not the one you hand picked for me, k?
So? They are still... guess what?
{ drumroll }
Humans!
So misconception means they aren't human? How?
It seems most of your ideas are bankrupt, you really should do something about it.
Um... nope. Until human women give birth to tomatoes, that's a human in the womb when she is "pregnant".
Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?
It's still a human embryo and human fetus.
You mean a human isn't cloned from a sheep? Amazing how, even cloned, we know what we will get.
Actually no, I wasn't even goin' that direction, but I'll read your argument against the position I haven't taken anyway.... So don't get mad when my arguments will match my real statements and not the one you hand picked for me, k?
So? They are still... guess what?
{ drumroll }
Humans!
So misconception means they aren't human? How?
It seems most of your ideas are bankrupt, you really should do something about it.
Um... nope. Until human women give birth to tomatoes, that's a human in the womb when she is "pregnant".
keypurr
Well-known member
I think that it is a fetus until it is born. However a fetus is a promis of a human and should be held in very high esteem. There may be circustances where abortion would be a altertive to a health problem of the mother. It would then be a choice between a human and a promise of a human. this is not an easy decision for anyone.
Adam became a living soul only when God put breath in his body. I am sure a number of verses can be found to differ from this. We are not smart enough to tell just when we became human, but I think that would be a good place to consider. I am not in favor of abortion for just any reason. Health of Mother is my main concern. Deeply personal decision should be made by partys involved.
Adam became a living soul only when God put breath in his body. I am sure a number of verses can be found to differ from this. We are not smart enough to tell just when we became human, but I think that would be a good place to consider. I am not in favor of abortion for just any reason. Health of Mother is my main concern. Deeply personal decision should be made by partys involved.
john2001-
People do hold funerals for misccaried children.
People do hold funerals for misccaried children.
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