virgin birth
- Thread starter apelican
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The Mosaic law required a woman to be subject to her husband. Joseph was Mary's head and was responsible for Mary's welfare.
WeberHome
New member
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Joseph adopted Mary's baby. I know that's true because he was ordered to
name the boy; and as a rule, men don't name a woman's children unless
they're related.
†. Matt 1:21 . . And she will bear a son; and you shall call his name Jesus
Adopted children have all the same rights and privileges as biological
children, including the right to inherit and be placed in the family's
genealogy.
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Joseph adopted Mary's baby. I know that's true because he was ordered to
name the boy; and as a rule, men don't name a woman's children unless
they're related.
†. Matt 1:21 . . And she will bear a son; and you shall call his name Jesus
Adopted children have all the same rights and privileges as biological
children, including the right to inherit and be placed in the family's
genealogy.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Of course not. For instance, a Cohen, a priest, must be in male line a descendant of Aharon, the brother of Moses. Adopted children cannot be a cohen.
The same holds true for somebody who sits on the throne of Israel, that must be in male line a direct descendant of king David, an adopted child won't do.
That is yet another reason why the Christian messiah is disqualified from being the messiah.
The messiah must be in male line a descendant of King David.
"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15
Behold, a sower on a white horse went forth to sow, and in his hand was a toxon seedbow. And as he sowed, some seed fell upon compacted downtrodden soil of the heart by the side of the way. Other seed fell upon rocky soil of the heart that was full of sharp and jagged stones. Other seed fell upon contaminated soil of the heart that was full of thistles and thorns. But some seed fell upon soil of the heart that was tilled, sifted, purged, and virgin: and the Seed of the Word sprouted, and took deep root in the fertile soil; and a garden of foliage was produced, and then the stalk began to ascend.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Joseph was given the privilege of being Jesus's earthly Father and thus Jesus was recorded to be Joseph's Son until it was to be revealed who His Father truly was. We all know what happened when He revealed that.
genuineoriginal
New member
King Saul, the first king to sit on the throne of Israel, was not a direct descendant of king David, which makes your point pointless.
Also, physical descent is not as important as you think, since it really depends on what God decrees.
Matthew 3:9 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. |
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Of course my point is not pointless. Saul was BEFORE David.
Of David it is said: "4 But that night the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying:
“But it happened that night that the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying, 5 “Go and tell My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Would you build a house for Me to dwell in? 6 For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 Wherever I have moved about with all the children of Israel, have I ever spoken a word to anyone from the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’”’ 8 Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel. 9 And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the Lord tells you that He will make you a house.
12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”
17 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David."
2 Samuel 7
So it is clear we are talking about physical descendants.
Of course He can. But does He do that very often?
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
WeberHome
New member
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The OP did not ask about kings and messiahs and cohens. He only wanted to
know how Jesus got into Joseph's genealogy.
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The OP did not ask about kings and messiahs and cohens. He only wanted to
know how Jesus got into Joseph's genealogy.
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That's not true in Israel. Lineage is through the mother which is why Paul had Timothy circumcised.
genuineoriginal
New member
One physical descendant, named Solomon, fulfilled the prophecy of "your seed after you, who will come from your body".
Jesus is of the "house" of David and it the true king of the "kingdom" of David.
Does God often raise up a descendant who is not physically related?
He did it with Samuel who took over from Eli and He did it with Jesus who inherited the throne and kingdom of David.
I am sure there are other examples that can be found.
WeberHome
New member
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According to Jesus' genealogy in Luke's gospel, he was one of David's
biological descendants; which is good. However, the line of Davidic royalty
passes down through David's son Solomon. That's not so good.
The problem is, Jesus was not one of Solomon's biological descendants.
According to Luke; Jesus descended biologically from Solomon's brother
Nathan. So Jesus was David's blood, but Jesus was not in line for the throne.
What to do?
Well; we have Jacob to thank for resolving this dilemma centuries before
Jesus was born; actually, quite a while before David was even born.
At Gen 48:5-7, Jacob adopted his own two grandsons Manasseh and
Ephraim; thus installing them in positions equal in rank, honor, and power to
his twelve original sons, which had the effect of adding additional children to
Rachel's brood just as effectively as the children born of her maid Bilhah--
Dan, and Naphtali.
Jacob's motive for adopting Joseph's two sons was in sympathy for his
deceased wife being cut off during her child-bearing years, which
subsequently prevented her from having any more children of her own.
Ephraim and Manasseh bring Rachel's total up to six: two of her own, two by
her maid Bilhah, and two by Joseph's wife Asenath.
Now, fast-forward to the New Testament where the angel of The Lord spoke
to Joseph in a dream and ordered him to take part in naming Mary's baby.
"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus" (Matt
1:21)
Joseph complied.
"And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matt 1:25)
So Jesus went in the books as Joseph's son; because that's how it worked in
those days when a man stood with a woman to name her child.
Bottom line: Heirs to David's throne have to be his biological progeny-- that
much is irrevocable. However, they don't have to be Solomon's biological
progeny. All that matters is that they be in his line lawfully.
Not too many Jews are happy with the way Jesus became heir to David's
throne; but who are they to challenge Jacob's precedent? Being the grand
paterfamilias of the people of Israel; Jacob outranks every one of them.
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According to Jesus' genealogy in Luke's gospel, he was one of David's
biological descendants; which is good. However, the line of Davidic royalty
passes down through David's son Solomon. That's not so good.
The problem is, Jesus was not one of Solomon's biological descendants.
According to Luke; Jesus descended biologically from Solomon's brother
Nathan. So Jesus was David's blood, but Jesus was not in line for the throne.
What to do?
Well; we have Jacob to thank for resolving this dilemma centuries before
Jesus was born; actually, quite a while before David was even born.
At Gen 48:5-7, Jacob adopted his own two grandsons Manasseh and
Ephraim; thus installing them in positions equal in rank, honor, and power to
his twelve original sons, which had the effect of adding additional children to
Rachel's brood just as effectively as the children born of her maid Bilhah--
Dan, and Naphtali.
Jacob's motive for adopting Joseph's two sons was in sympathy for his
deceased wife being cut off during her child-bearing years, which
subsequently prevented her from having any more children of her own.
Ephraim and Manasseh bring Rachel's total up to six: two of her own, two by
her maid Bilhah, and two by Joseph's wife Asenath.
Now, fast-forward to the New Testament where the angel of The Lord spoke
to Joseph in a dream and ordered him to take part in naming Mary's baby.
"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus" (Matt
1:21)
Joseph complied.
"And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matt 1:25)
So Jesus went in the books as Joseph's son; because that's how it worked in
those days when a man stood with a woman to name her child.
Bottom line: Heirs to David's throne have to be his biological progeny-- that
much is irrevocable. However, they don't have to be Solomon's biological
progeny. All that matters is that they be in his line lawfully.
Not too many Jews are happy with the way Jesus became heir to David's
throne; but who are they to challenge Jacob's precedent? Being the grand
paterfamilias of the people of Israel; Jacob outranks every one of them.
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Prizebeatz1
New member
I don't think being born of a virgin is meant to be taken literally. I think it's symbolic of something bigger.
So you only believe certain parts of the Bible ? I've seen you make similar remarks about other scripture.
Is it symbolic of religious struggle against reality?
In the bible humans arise from:
-Breathing into a pile of dirt
-Manipulation of a rib
-Magic, out of nowhere (depending on whether you subscribe to the Preadamite fantasy)
-The usual way we make humans
-A special way that doesn't involve a human father
Stuart
WeberHome
New member
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We have to accept it literally because God wanted Christ to be not only
David's son, but also God's son. Had Christ been sired normally, instead of
miraculously, it would have left God out of Christ's pedigree.
†. Luke 1:35-36 . . And the angel answered and said to her: The Holy Spirit
will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.
God has lots of sons, but none of the others are His begotten sons like
Jesus. Had he been sired normally, he wouldn't be God's begotten son; he'd
just be another nondescript son like all the rest.
A serious element of Jesus' begotten relationship to God is that seeing as
how Jesus is the offspring of a god, then he's not only human, but he's
also divine, because if God were to reproduce, which obviously He did, then
His progeny would be divine life; just as when humans reproduce, their
progeny is human life.
Ergo: Jesus Christ is an amalgam of God and Man; which actually makes him
a perfect mediator between God and Man because Jesus fully understands
both sides of the aisle seeing as he's on both sides.
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We have to accept it literally because God wanted Christ to be not only
David's son, but also God's son. Had Christ been sired normally, instead of
miraculously, it would have left God out of Christ's pedigree.
†. Luke 1:35-36 . . And the angel answered and said to her: The Holy Spirit
will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.
God has lots of sons, but none of the others are His begotten sons like
Jesus. Had he been sired normally, he wouldn't be God's begotten son; he'd
just be another nondescript son like all the rest.
A serious element of Jesus' begotten relationship to God is that seeing as
how Jesus is the offspring of a god, then he's not only human, but he's
also divine, because if God were to reproduce, which obviously He did, then
His progeny would be divine life; just as when humans reproduce, their
progeny is human life.
Ergo: Jesus Christ is an amalgam of God and Man; which actually makes him
a perfect mediator between God and Man because Jesus fully understands
both sides of the aisle seeing as he's on both sides.
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Prizebeatz1
New member
I think we've missed the point by a large margin. The bible is true but not in a literal context. The bible points to something bigger of which the virgin birth is a descriptor. Something of uniform distribution, unblemished, unwavering. It points to the soul which is our true identity. I don't think it's a coincidence the soul has the same properties as God and that the story of Jesus so closely resembles its characteristics.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Because of the virgin birth he is not in male line a descendant of King David, and therefore disqualified from being the messiah.
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Wrong. Whether somebody is a Jew or not goes through the mother.
From which tribe somebody is, and whether or not he is a levite, or a cohen, or a descendant of David, that all goes through the male line.
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5