Unseen Paradox Or Ignored?

[Samie]

Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin, and therefore NOT in Christ. To be in Christ, they teach that one has to believe and accept the gospel. The paradox is that while they believe Christ saying APART from Him man can do NOTHING, yet they REQUIRE people, who they say are yet apart from Christ, to do SOMETHING - believe and accept the gospel - so they can be in Christ.

Can't they see the paradox or they simply ignore it?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin, and therefore NOT in Christ. To be in Christ, they teach that one has to believe and accept the gospel. The paradox is that while they believe Christ saying APART from Him man can do NOTHING, yet they REQUIRE people, who they say are yet apart from Christ, to do SOMETHING - believe and accept the gospel - so they can be in Christ.

Can't they see the paradox or they simply ignore it?

Apparently, you don't have any "Spiritual Discernment."

 

[Clete]

Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin, and therefore NOT in Christ. To be in Christ, they teach that one has to believe and accept the gospel. The paradox is that while they believe Christ saying APART from Him man can do NOTHING, yet they REQUIRE people, who they say are yet apart from Christ, to do SOMETHING - believe and accept the gospel - so they can be in Christ.

Can't they see the paradox or they simply ignore it?

How can anyone be this stupid?

Here's basically what Samie just got through saying...

"Both Calvinist and Arminians agree that Calvinism is true, therefore Arminians contradict themselves."

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! (Well, aside from the idea that God predestines baby rape, mass murder, etc.)

I'm certainly not an Arminian but give me a break! I mean, if this is the sort of thing that you accept as a good argument, why in the world are you even bothering with it in the first place? This is just straight up juvenile stupidity. You're more likely to convince people that the whole of Christianity is false than you are of converting anyone to Calvinism! Anyone who understands Arminian theology beyond the third grade Sunday School level isn't going to be moved an inch by this sort of silly trickery.

 

[Zeke]

Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin, and therefore NOT in Christ. To be in Christ, they teach that one has to believe and accept the gospel. The paradox is that while they believe Christ saying APART from Him man can do NOTHING, yet they REQUIRE people, who they say are yet apart from Christ, to do SOMETHING - believe and accept the gospel - so they can be in Christ.

Can't they see the paradox or they simply ignore it?

Divine Amnesia is something divine seeds all come into this world infected with, Religion helps keep that secret veiled to keep their followers dependent on them by their parasitical worldly based doctrines that secularize Divine history Phil 2:5-9, told in allegory representing heavenly types/states Galatians 4:24, only revelation frees the mind from them Galatians 1:12, Luke 17:20-21, the story of Christ is about our journey to being awakened to where we came from Galatians 4:1.

 

[Samie]

Apparently, you don't have any "Spiritual Discernment."

One with "Spiritual Discernment" can see the paradox, but why can't you?

 

[Samie]

How can anyone be this stupid?

Here's basically what Samie just got through saying...

"Both Calvinist and Arminians agree that Calvinism is true, therefore Arminians contradict themselves."

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! (Well, aside from the idea that God predestines baby rape, mass murder, etc.)

I'm certainly not an Arminian but give me a break! I mean, if this is the sort of thing that you accept as a good argument, why in the world are you even bothering with it in the first place? This is just straight up juvenile stupidity. You're more likely to convince people that the whole of Christianity is false than you are of converting anyone to Calvinism! Anyone who understands Arminian theology beyond the third grade Sunday School level isn't going to be moved an inch by this sort of silly trickery.

Simply proves Clete is among those who can't see the paradox. His post is even a paradox in itself by taking the OP as an attempt to convert people to Calvinism.

 

[Clete]

Simply proves Clete is among those who can't see the paradox. His post is even a paradox in itself by taking the OP as an attempt to convert people to Calvinism.

It's either an attempt to convert people to Calvinism or an attempt to argue that the whole of Christianity is false, which I alluded too. Either way, it demonstrates a total lack of any understanding of Arminian doctrine. And if it is an argument against both then it shows a similar lack of understanding of Calvinist doctrine as well because Calvinism DOES NOT teach that anyone does anything to get saved. Calvinism teaches that people were saved before they ever existed and only have faith because God "regenerated" them before hand.

Either way you cut it, the opening post is stupidity.

 

[Samie]

It's either an attempt to convert people to Calvinism or an attempt to argue that the whole of Christianity is false, which I alluded too. Either way, it demonstrates a total lack of any understanding of Arminian doctrine. And if it is an argument against both then it shows a similar lack of understanding of Calvinist doctrine as well because Calvinism DOES NOT teach that anyone does anything to get saved. Calvinism teaches that people were saved before they ever existed and only have faith because God "regenerated" them before hand.

Either way you cut it, the opening post is stupidity.

Simply proves Clete's display of misunderstanding or non-understanding of the OP. It's one thing to say Christianity is false and another thing to say preachers' teaching is false. It's the preachers' teaching that is false, NOT Christianity. Christianity already existed long before the first preacher introduced the false doctrine of people being born in sin.

And Clete likewise is not aware that Calvinism teaches that people are born in sin. And to be born in sin is to be born NOT in Christ and therefore born apart from Christ, and hence born lost, whether Calvinists & Clete admit this fact or not.

It's even clearer now who posted stupidity.

 

[Samie]

Simply proves Clete's display of misunderstanding or non-understanding of the OP. It's one thing to say Christianity is false and another thing to say preachers' teaching is false. It's the preachers' teaching that is false, NOT Christianity. Christianity already existed long before the first preacher introduced the false doctrine of people being born in sin.

And Clete likewise is not aware that Calvinism teaches that people are born in sin. And to be born in sin is to be born NOT in Christ and therefore born apart from Christ, and hence born lost, whether Calvinists & Clete admit this fact or not.

It's even clearer now who posted stupidity.

Now get back to real work, Clete, and address the issue raised in the OP. Don't waste time by posting stupidities.

 

[Clete]

Simply proves Clete's display of misunderstanding or non-understanding of the OP. It's one thing to say Christianity is false and another thing to say preachers' teaching is false. It's the preachers' teaching that is false, NOT Christianity. Christianity already existed long before the first preacher introduced the false doctrine of people being born in sin.

And Clete likewise is not aware that Calvinism teaches that people are born in sin. And to be born in sin is to be born NOT in Christ and therefore born apart from Christ, and hence born lost, whether Calvinists & Clete admit this fact or not.

It's even clearer now who posted stupidity.

I'd hate for you to actually engage the debate and/or make any effort to clarify your position if/when someone happens to miss your intentionally veiled point. That would be an amazingly annoying thing to do on a debate forum.


Original sin is a completely false teaching that I reject entirely and have said so many times on this forum over the years. I never suggested that Calvinists teach anything other than that people are born in sin and are lost from the time they are conceived in the womb. This in not only unjust but unbiblical and irrational. But your argument in the opening post doesn't touch Calvinism because Calvinism DOES NOT TEACH that anyone is either required nor even capable of doing anything, including believing the gospel unless (basically speaking) God does it for them (i.e. their idiotic doctrine of Regeneration).

Arminians, on the other hand, do indeed teach Original Sin but they DO NOT TEACH Total Depravity, which is a Calvinist doctrine that your opening posts implies that Arminians believe, which is the stupidity that I've been referring to from the start.

So, I'll say it again. Your opening post does nothing but demonstrates your own ignorance of both doctrines and won't move anyone an inch because your so-called paradox only exists for a doctrinal system that that neither Calvinists nor Arminians believes in.

 

[COGTHW]

You are born of sin. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' Romans 5:12 but you can get that sin washed of by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. ' And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' Acts 22:16 ; that is to be born of God 'He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.'
9 'Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.' Roman 5:8-9


Obey Jesus Christ

 

[Samie]

I'd hate for you to actually engage the debate and/or make any effort to clarify your position if/when someone happens to miss your intentionally veiled point. That would be an amazingly annoying thing to do on a debate forum.


Original sin is a completely false teaching that I reject entirely and have said so many times on this forum over the years. I never suggested that Calvinists teach anything other than that people are born in sin and are lost from the time they are conceived in the womb. This in not only unjust but unbiblical and irrational. But your argument in the opening post doesn't touch Calvinism because Calvinism DOES NOT TEACH that anyone is either required nor even capable of doing anything, including believing the gospel unless (basically speaking) God does it for them (i.e. their idiotic doctrine of Regeneration).

Arminians, on the other hand, do indeed teach Original Sin but they DO NOT TEACH Total Depravity, which is a Calvinist doctrine that your opening posts implies that Arminians believe, which is the stupidity that I've been referring to from the start.

So, I'll say it again. Your opening post does nothing but demonstrates your own ignorance of both doctrines and won't move anyone an inch because your so-called paradox only exists for a doctrinal system that that neither Calvinists nor Arminians believes in.

So, you are blind to the paradox. You teach that people are born in sin. And to be in sin is to be APART from Christ. And APART from Him, one can do NOTHING. But you are requiring people who you consider are born in sin, and hence APART from Christ, to do SOMETHING. But you cannot see the paradox in what you teach.

 

[Clete]

So, you are blind to the paradox.

That which does not exist is only seen by the delusional.

You teach that people are born in sin.

No, I don't.

A point that I've already made. Why do you believe simply repeating yourself as though I've said nothing does anything to rebut by argument?

And to be in sin is to be APART from Christ.

This one I agree with.

And APART from Him, one can do NOTHING.

Only Calvinists teach this.

Another point I've already made.

But you are requiring people who you consider are born in sin, and hence APART from Christ, to do SOMETHING. But you cannot see the paradox in what you teach.

If I taught that, I could see it but seeing as I don't teach it, the paradox DOES NOT EXIST!

In fact, the ONLY people it would exist for is Calvinist because a major premise of this 'paradox' (which isn't even a paradox actually but rather a straight-forward and undeniable self-contradiction) is the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e. the idea that people are incapable of believing the gospel on their own or do anything else good for that matter). Your "paradox" therefore does not apply to anyone who rejects EITHER the doctrine of Total Depravity or the doctrine of Original Sin. That pretty much eliminates everyone who isn't an Augustinian.

Now, I grant you that there are A LOT of Christians that are Augustinian to one degree or another, Calvinists and Catholics being to two most extreme examples but Arminians certainly are not in that group and neither are millions of other Christians, including myself.

So, you've done nothing more really than to make an argument, primarily against Calvinism, erroneously declaring it to be a "paradox" and then refused to respond to anyone who has pointed this out except to simply repeat yourself like some sort of idiot. Very impressive.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

You are born of sin. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' Romans 5:12 but you can get that sin washed of by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. ' And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' Acts 22:16 ; that is to be born of God 'He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.'
9 'Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.' Roman 5:8-9


Obey Jesus Christ

You should read all of and then past the fifth chapter of Romans! You've missed Paul's entire point of having brought it up!

No one - NO ONE - will be punished for any sin other than they ones they commit themselves. It is not just for a man to be punished for the sins of his father. This alone, along with the simplest understanding of what it means to say that God is just, is sufficient to blow the doctrine of Oringial Sin to smitherines! It is not merely a false doctrine, it is blasphemy. It not only denies the work Christ accomplished on the cross (Romans 5:12-21) but it presents God as unjust.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

That which does not exist is only seen by the delusional.

No, I don't.

A point that I've already made. Why do you believe simply repeating yourself as though I've said nothing does anything to rebut by argument?


This one I agree with.


Only Calvinists teach this.

Another point I've already made.


If I taught that, I could see it but seeing as I don't teach it, the paradox DOES NOT EXIST!

In fact, the ONLY people it would exist for is Calvinist because a major premise of this 'paradox' (which isn't even a paradox actually but rather a straight-forward and undeniable self-contradiction) is the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e. the idea that people are incapable of believing the gospel on their own or do anything else good for that matter). Your "paradox" therefore does not apply to anyone who rejects EITHER the doctrine of Total Depravity or the doctrine of Original Sin. That pretty much eliminates everyone who isn't an Augustinian.

Now, I grant you that there are A LOT of Christians that are Augustinian to one degree or another, Calvinists and Catholics being to two most extreme examples but Arminians certainly are not in that group and neither are millions of other Christians, including myself.

So, you've done nothing more really than to make an argument, primarily against Calvinism, erroneously declaring it to be a "paradox" and then refused to respond to anyone who has pointed this out except to simply repeat yourself like some sort of idiot. Very impressive.


Resting in Him,
Clete

I can't blame you for not seeing the paradox since you seem not aware of what Arminianism actually teaches, or are you, Clete? Here's Article 1 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance (emphases mine):

Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

According to the above quote, God leaves in sin the incorrigible from the fallen sinful race of men.

So, does Arminianism not teach people are born in sin or do I have to explain the obvious, Clete?

 

[Clete]

I can't blame you for not seeing the paradox since you seem not aware of what Arminianism actually teaches, or are you, Clete? Here's Article 1 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance (emphases mine):According to the above quote, God leaves in sin the incorrigible from the fallen sinful race of men.

So, does Arminianism not teach people are born in sin or do I have to explain the obvious, Clete?

I have already explained this!

Arminians believe in Original Sin but they DO NOT TEACH Total Depravity!

What you quoted is essentially the Arminian version of Original Sin. Notice however that it states that God will save those who believe. The direct implication is that fallen people are capable of doing so and that is, in fact, what Arminians believe. It is the CALVINISTS that believe fallen men are incapable of believing, the doctrine is called Total Depravity and is the T is the TULIP doctrines which roughly outlines Calvinist doctrine.

Calvinists believe in both Original Sin AND Total Depravity and that is, therefore, the ONLY group that is touched by your "paradox", which I'll state again is not a paradox at all but simply a self-contradiction.

Why do you insist on sticking to the obviously false position? Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, who knows anything about Arminianism knows that they do not accept any of the TULIP doctrines, including Total Depravity. Why not simply apply your argument to those it actually applies too? I mean, if you want to reject both Calvinism and Arminianism then I'd say that's an excellent thing to do but there are real reasons to do it. It isn't necessary to make believe that either one of them believes something that they don't in order to find good reason to discard both systems. Of the two, it's the Calvinists who are the more logically self-consistent, which is really saying something big against Arminianism because Calvinism is one logical fallacy after another to the point of outright stupidity, not to mention blasphemy! So, use your argument against those to whom it applies and find something real to use against other, equally false, doctrinal systems.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

Hi Clete;

You believe people are born in sin and hence born APART from Christ.

Christ said APART from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). You cannot believe this and instead believes APART from Christ man can do SOMETHING.

It is NOT difficult to see that your position is against what Christ Himself said. Can you explain how your position is not against what Christ said?

 

[Clete]

Hi Clete;

You believe people are born in sin and hence born APART from Christ.

No, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!!

If babies go to Hell because of Adam's sin, God is unjust.

How many times do you want me to repeat this?

Christ said APART from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

Yes, but only Calvinists don't understand hyperbole and construct whole doctrines around that lack of understanding in spite the clearest possible direct biblical teaching that is contrary to that doctrine.

You cannot believe this and instead believes APART from Christ man can do SOMETHING.

Well, of course, I can and in fact do! It's because I understand first and foremost that God is not arbitrary as the Calvinists teach. God is just and has removed the curse of Adam by becoming a curse for us at Calvary (Romans 5). People will, therefore, be separated from God (i.e. die) because of their own sin, not Adam's (Ezekiel 18).

Where you even aware that Ezekiel 18 was in the bible before I brought it up here?

That's a real question, by the way, it isn't intended to be insulting or off-putting in any way. I ask because it has been my experience that those who accept the doctrine of Original Sin (which didn't exist in the church prior to Augustine, by the way) had no idea that there is a whole chapter of the Old Testament dedicated to teaching the exact opposite doctrine. And so I'm just curious to know whether you had ever had anyone bring that chapter to your attention before. It's astounding to me how anyone can continue to believe that the doctrine of Original Sin is anything but a blasphemous error after a single reading of Ezekiel 18. I mean, God Himself tells us directly not to believe that He holds people responsible for the sins of their ancestors! He is clearly insulted by the idea. What else is there to say?

It is NOT difficult to see that your position is against what Christ Himself said. Can you explain how your position is not against what Christ said?

If it were not for Christ all men would indeed be cursed and dead spiritually from birth. But Christ removed the curse at Calvary. Your error is to assume that John 15:5 could only apply to believers and not the entire human race. And I do mean to use the word "assume" because that is what you do. You effectively bring your doctrine to the text. It is classic eisegesis rather than the proper exegesis that should be done.

Of course, your first and most important error is a faulty doctrinal foundation. You, as all Calvinists do, build your Theology Proper (your theology of God) on pagan Greek philosophical notions about who God is and what He is like. As a result, you place ideas about how big God is and how much power He has and how much He knows above ideas like justice, righteousness, love, kindness and mercy. You, therefore, build your doctrine upon and even define what righteousness means by ideas such as omnipotence and immutability and omniscience rather than the other way around as the bible itself does. And so you have no problem with (and in fact don't even notice) doctrines that directly imply that God is unjust because you have no understanding of what justice is apart from whatever you THINK that God happens to do (whether He's actually done it or not).

The bible, on the other hand, teaches us to think in just the exact opposite manner. It teaches in countless ways and in hundreds of different verses that God is actually just and NOT arbitrary. Not only that, but it explicitly teaches that justice is the basis of God's authority, not the other way around, as the Calvinists teach.

Psalms 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne;
Mercy and truth go before Your face.

Psalms 97:1 The Lord reigns;
Let the earth rejoice;
Let the multitude of isles be glad!
2 Clouds and darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.​

We can, therefore, know, without even having to think very hard about it at all, that any doctrine that presents God in an unjust light is a false doctrine. This is the power of having clearly understood and biblically based first principles and the advantage of building a doctrinal system based solely upon them.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

Hi Clete;

Whew, that's a lot. But there's nothing in your post that addresses my question.

I was simply asking you to explain how your statement (apart from Christ, man can do SOMETHING), is NOT diametrically opposed to Christ's statement (apart from Me, you can do NOTHING) which I apply to all, not to believers only.

Please directly address my question. Thanks.

 

[Samie]

Hi Clete;

While waiting for your response to an earlier post prior to this one, I'd like to make another clarification.

You admit you are an Arminian. You admit that Arminians believe in the doctrine of Original Sin, BUT not in the Calvinists' doctrine of Total Depravity. Article 1 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance, which I have quoted earlier and which I believe you know so well, INDIRECTLY teaches that people are born in sin, by using such phrases as "fallen, sinful human race", "leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin".

And since you claim to be an Arminian, I called your attention to this fact, by saying "You believe people are born in sin and hence born APART from Christ.",
you vehemently responded: "No, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!!"

Do you mean 1) people are NOT born in sin and hence born NOT APART from Christ, or, 2) people are born in sin, yet they are born NOT APART from Christ?

I want to exactly know your position because in an earlier post, when I said "And to be in sin is to be APART from Christ.",
You responded "This one I agree with."

Is that not a contradiction? While you agree that to be in sin is to be APART from Christ, yet you don't believe that to be born in sin is to be born APART from Christ. Can you elucidate some more, please? I want to know exactly what your position is in this issue.

Thanks.