Time Of The End

[CherubRam]

The time of the end will go beyond what Christians now think.

Isaiah 46:13
I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

Isaiah 48:9
For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off.

Ezekiel 12:25
But I the LORD will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious house, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

Habakkuk 2:2-3
2. Then the LORD replied: "Write down the revelation and make it plain on tablets so that a messenger may run with it. 3. For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it lingers, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!


Since 1994 I have ran with the message that the end is delayed.

Michael.

 

[CherubRam]

Link to image: http://farm1.staticflickr.com/468/20488798512_91809be3e3_b.jpg

 

[daqq]

Link to image: http://farm1.staticflickr.com/468/20488798512_91809be3e3_b.jpg

Hmmm, Daniel 8:14 does not have plural "2300 evenings and mornings", like your chart has, but rather the passage actually has `ereb boqer which, even if we add "an" and "a", would still only say "[an] evening [a] morning", which still only implies a single day, (by the accounting of a yom as prescribed in the opening Genesis creation account). But how can it be two thousand three hundred evening-morning? Perhaps the yamim were abridged, as Yeshua says, or no flesh would have been saved? And perhaps then the numbers were not originally intended as quantitative numbers in the way that most have assumed, but rather perhaps qualitative numbers, such as in, "An evening, a morning, two ox-head rulers of the thousands and three [little horn rulers] of the hundreds"? Could five such kings have fallen in a single evening-morning? :crackup:

 

[CherubRam]

Hmmm, Daniel 8:14 does not have plural "2300 evenings and mornings", like your chart has, but rather the passage actually has `ereb boqer which, even if we add "an" and "a", would still only say "[an] evening [a] morning", which still only implies a single day, (by the accounting of a yom as prescribed in the opening Genesis creation account). But how can it be two thousand three hundred evening-morning? Perhaps the yamim were abridged, as Yeshua says, or no flesh would have been saved? And perhaps then the numbers were not originally intended as quantitative numbers in the way that most have assumed, but rather perhaps qualitative numbers, such as in, "An evening, a morning, two ox-head rulers of the thousands and three [little horn rulers] of the hundreds"? Could five such kings have fallen in a single evening-morning? :crackup:

Daniel 8:14 New International Version
He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

 

[daqq]

Daniel 8:14 New International Version
He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

Young's Literal Bible Translation is called literal for good reason:

Daniel 8:14 YLT
14. And he saith unto me, Till evening - morning two thousand and three hundred, then is the holy place declared right.

Daniel 8:26 YLT
26. And the appearance of the evening and of the morning, that is told, is true; and thou, hide thou the vision, for [it is] after many days.'

Even king Jimmy and his court disagree with you in the latter statement:

Daniel 8:26 KJV
26. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

It is clearly an evening and a morning but to each his own I suppose . . .

 

[Bradley D]

The finite will never fully understand the infinite.

"…But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:7-9).

 

[CherubRam]

Young's Literal Bible Translation is called literal for good reason:

Daniel 8:14 YLT
14. And he saith unto me, Till evening - morning two thousand and three hundred, then is the holy place declared right.

Daniel 8:26 YLT
26. And the appearance of the evening and of the morning, that is told, is true; and thou, hide thou the vision, for [it is] after many days.'

Even king Jimmy and his court disagree with you in the latter statement:

Daniel 8:26 KJV
26. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

It is clearly an evening and a morning but to each his own I suppose . . .

Quote: "after many days" -- "[it is]" is added to make the English language read correctly. You need to keep in mind that Greek and Hebrew do not always translate well into English.

 

[CherubRam]

After Daniels prophecy the temple was first defiled in 167 BC. The original priesthood and their families were forced out of the temple and city, they were made to go and live in the desert. Since that time worldly people have been in control of the temple and the nation Israel. Even this day.

The Nation of Israel was created by Yahwah through Moses as a theocracy, for all nations, to serve Yahwah according to His commands.

 

[Interplanner]

CherubRam,
what is the point of making a theocracy there and saying it is for all nations?

There is no making a theocracy in the NT either in Israel or in the nations. Instead the kingdom is not of this world--not the kind you see in this world. That's because the Gospel is the compelling authority and it is above thrones and powers. So we find, in Acts 26, that Paul wants individuals in Roman admin to be righteous and self-controlled in honor of Christ, but we don't see Paul taking over the Roman admin and he doesn't see any future fulfillment for Israel in that same presentation. That is because the resurrection and enthronement of Christ fulfilled it--resulted in the true intended (prophetic) meaning. Christians dare proclaim that the whole place and universe belongs to Christ, placing him above all dominion and power.

Therefore when I look on the home page of a Christian radio station and find a messianic proclaiming its mission of the torah to the world, I believe the thing to be way off track.

Eph 3:5,6 says that the fulfillment of promises to Israel, the citizenship and membership for the nations are not accessed through the law, but rather through the Gospel. That was a mystery to people in Judaism, but is no longer--to those in Christ. That is the living temple community of the Gospel which Christ created.

 

[CherubRam]

CherubRam,
what is the point of making a theocracy there and saying it is for all nations?

There is no making a theocracy in the NT either in Israel or in the nations. Instead the kingdom is not of this world--not the kind you see in this world. That's because the Gospel is the compelling authority and it is above thrones and powers. So we find, in Acts 26, that Paul wants individuals in Roman admin to be righteous and self-controlled in honor of Christ, but we don't see Paul taking over the Roman admin and he doesn't see any future fulfillment for Israel in that same presentation. That is because the resurrection and enthronement of Christ fulfilled it--resulted in the true intended (prophetic) meaning. Christians dare proclaim that the whole place and universe belongs to Christ, placing him above all dominion and power.

Therefore when I look on the home page of a Christian radio station and find a messianic proclaiming its mission of the torah to the world, I believe the thing to be way off track.

Eph 3:5,6 says that the fulfillment of promises to Israel, the citizenship and membership for the nations are not accessed through the law, but rather through the Gospel. That was a mystery to people in Judaism, but is no longer--to those in Christ. That is the living temple community of the Gospel which Christ created.

The kingdom of heaven is not of this world, but at the end of the 1000 year reign God will make the earth His kingdom. He will make all things new.

The old covenant with the nations has been revoked.
Zechariah 11:10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord.

We are now under a new covenant with the nations, and the world's Elect are the nation Israel.

Israel is meant to be a theocracy for all nations, that is what God created it for.

 

[Interplanner]

The kingdom of heaven/God is now. The millenium is now and is not Judaic and ends in a short rebellion, and is on this earth as we know it. Then there is a NHNE after the day of judgement.

Yes, the elect now are the Israel of God, but we are not to set up theocracies. And the kingdom not being of this world only refers to its energizing dynamic; we do not enforce with swords. It is upon this world and is to be proclaimed as such because everyone should 'kiss the Son, lest he be angry.'

I think a few things need tidying up in what you are saying.

 

[CherubRam]

The kingdom of heaven/God is now. The millenium is now and is not Judaic and ends in a short rebellion, and is on this earth as we know it. Then there is a NHNE after the day of judgement.

Yes, the elect now are the Israel of God, but we are not to set up theocracies. And the kingdom not being of this world only refers to its energizing dynamic; we do not enforce with swords. It is upon this world and is to be proclaimed as such because everyone should 'kiss the Son, lest he be angry.'

I think a few things need tidying up in what you are saying.

You are greatly mistaken about many things. Your assertions are not correct according to prophetic time or prophecies.

 

[Interplanner]

Better move on to details if you are going to say that. So are we supposed to enforce our faith with swords and guns?

Can you show me any Judaic features to the 1000 years, given that it is only imagery anyway?

We are in agreement that there is another Israel right now, which was what the prophets were speaking of. This is why central Judaism never accepted the prophets as divine; they could sniff out the fact that the Law was no longer determinative.

The true Christian faith dares right now to declare that this is Christ's world and everyone should 'kiss the son lest he be angry' Ps 2, which was quoted many times by the apostles, and even upset the Roman admin, though no swords were needed.

Are you saying there is no NHNE after the day of final judgement? Excuse me, but the NHNE is the believer's reward and is seen in Christ right now (2 Cor 5).

I'll need details before I can take you seriously. You may first want to review my thread: 10 basic theses of New Testament eschatology.

 

[CherubRam]

Better move on to details if you are going to say that. So are we supposed to enforce our faith with swords and guns?

Can you show me any Judaic features to the 1000 years, given that it is only imagery anyway?

We are in agreement that there is another Israel right now, which was what the prophets were speaking of. This is why central Judaism never accepted the prophets as divine; they could sniff out the fact that the Law was no longer determinative.

The true Christian faith dares right now to declare that this is Christ's world and everyone should 'kiss the son lest he be angry' Ps 2, which was quoted many times by the apostles, and even upset the Roman admin, though no swords were needed.

Are you saying there is no NHNE after the day of final judgement? Excuse me, but the NHNE is the believer's reward and is seen in Christ right now (2 Cor 5).

I'll need details before I can take you seriously. You may first want to review my thread: 10 basic theses of New Testament eschatology.

The 1000 year reign of Christ starts after the Two Witnesses.
I see that you are twisting what I said already. I am not sure I want to even speak to such a person.

 

[Interplanner]

try to keep open enough to answer questions.

If the Revelation is a strict chronology, then yes, that reign starts after the two Witnesses. But what if they are Peter and Paul? There are many good reasons to think that all the material in the Rev is about that time; the beast is Rome; the whore is Judaism/Jerusalem. The beast devours the whore after the whore uses its power, etc.

the 1st chapter of the Rev says that its material is at hand, happening quickly, very soon. Those people in those 7 churches are mostly escapees from Judea who went to be safe near the apostles in "Little Asia" or Turkey.

ThE Rev is much more pastoral about all that they lost (friends, spouses, family); that God was still in control. That Christ would reign from heaven a long time but finally it would end in a revolt against believers and then God would smash it all and consume it in his wrath and take his people to be with him in the NHNE. But none of this is resolved in Judea/Israel.

 

[CherubRam]

The resurrection of the Two Witnesses is the Seventh Trumpet, and it marks the beginning of the reign of Christ. At that time the Elect will be resurrected. A riddle: And an half hour later Christ reigns upon the whole Earth. And Morning Stars will rule the Earth with a rod of iron.

 

[CherubRam]

Revelation 20 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[CherubRam]

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Hosea 6:2
After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

The resurrection of the elect is after two thousand years, and the third day is the end of the thousand years, and it is the resurrection of the sheep and goats.

 

[CherubRam]

Two days from when? That is the question.

Christ birth? 4 BC.

When he began preaching? 30 AD.

His resurrection? 35 AD.

The destruction of the temple? 70 AD.

The final defeat of Israel? 133 AD.

 

[CherubRam]

If a thousand years is like a day, then how long is an hour?