There were twelve apostles, then there were eleven.

[Jacob]

Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 12-6. It is Yom, Day. It is Boker, Morning.

There were twelve apostles, then there were eleven.

Matthew 10:2-4 NKJV - Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Luke 6:13-16 NKJV - And when it was day, He called His disciples to [Himself]; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; Matthew and Thomas; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; Judas [the son] of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.

Luke 22:14 NKJV - When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him.

Revelation 21:14 NKJV - Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Mark 14:10 NKJV - Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Him to them.

Matthew 28:16 NKJV - Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them.

Mark 16:14 NKJV - Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Luke 24:9 NKJV - Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

Luke 24:33 NKJV - So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those [who were] with them gathered together,

Acts 1:26 NKJV - And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 2:14 NKJV - But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Tambora]

Which 12 apostles do you see as written on 12 foundations of Rev 21:14?

Would those 12 foundations have the names of the original 12 including Judas, or will it have the name of Matthias who was chosen to replace Judas?

 

[beameup]

Matthias was the 12th apostle.

 

[Jacob]

Which 12 apostles do you see as written on 12 foundations of Rev 21:14?

Would those 12 foundations have the names of the original 12 including Judas, or will it have the name of Matthias who was chosen to replace Judas?

These are both good questions. Thank you for asking them. I have counted the apostles in the scripture now, and I do not know how to answer you. I have thought today about correcting myself for saying that there were twelve, eleven, and then twelve again, but for a different reason. Simply that twelve are not mentioned again.

 

[john w]

Matthias was the 12th disciple.

Apostle, not disciple-they are not synonymous terms.Although there are many passages that refers to the 12, as "disciples," with a particular reference to "the twelves," i.e., the term "disciple" was commonly used to refer specifically to the twelve apostles, all apostles were disciples, but all disciples are not apostles. To wit:

Luke 14 KJV
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Acts 6 KJV
1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. 2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said,


Luke 9 KJV

1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. ......

Luke 10 KJV

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.


Mark 3 KJV

7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judæa, 8 and from Jerusalem, and from Idumæa, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him. 9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him. 10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues. 11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. 12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. 14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: 16 and Simon he surnamed Peter; ..................


Study the details of the book, a book of details...

 

[Tambora]

These are both good questions. Thank you for asking them. I have counted the apostles in the scripture now, and I do not know how to answer you. I have thought today about correcting myself for saying that there were twelve, eleven, and then twelve again, but for a different reason. Simply that twelve are not mentioned again.

I've seen arguments for both Judas and Matthias.

Personally, I can understand why some would want to replace the name of Judas since Judas betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ, and they feel the name of a betrayer would not be appropriate as a name of a foundation.

Than again, we cannot just discard the fact that Jesus chose 12, and the 12 He chose included Judas.
He chose these 12 even though He knew one would betray Him.

I highlight chose because even though one would betray Him, those 12 were chosen specifically by the Lord Jesus Christ.
And since the betrayal was fulfilled as was written in the prophets.
Without that betrayal, prophesy would not have been fulfilled.
So for those reasons, I can also think it reasonable for the names to be of the 12 Christ chose for His earthly ministry.
In other words, the foundations had to include the betrayal that resulted in the death, burial, and resurrection which resulted in the city with the foundations.
It could be said that the foundations were incomplete without that betrayal being fulfilled.

But I don't raise a stink if anyone picks Matthias because I can understand why they would.

 

[jamie]

The Twelve are to judge Israel in the millennium.

Judas won't be there.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept and none of them is lost except the son of perdition that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

 

[Jacob]

I've seen arguments for both Judas and Matthias.

Personally, I can understand why some would want to replace the name of Judas since Judas betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ, and they feel the name of a betrayer would not be appropriate as a name of a foundation.

Than again, we cannot just discard the fact that Jesus chose 12, and the 12 He chose included Judas.
He chose these 12 even though He knew one would betray Him.

I highlight chose because even though one would betray Him, those 12 were chosen specifically by the Lord Jesus Christ.
And since the betrayal was fulfilled as was written in the prophets.
Without that betrayal, prophesy would not have been fulfilled.
So for those reasons, I can also think it reasonable for the names to be of the 12 Christ chose for His earthly ministry.
In other words, the foundations had to include the betrayal that resulted in the death, burial, and resurrection which resulted in the city with the foundations.
It could be said that the foundations were incomplete without that betrayal being fulfilled.

But I don't raise a stink if anyone picks Matthias because I can understand why they would.

Matthew 10:2-4 NKJV - Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Luke 6:13-16 NKJV - And when it was day, He called His disciples to [Himself]; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; Matthew and Thomas; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; Judas [the son] of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.

The names of the twelve in the scriptures (Matthew 10:2-4 NKJV and Luke 6:13-16 NKJV) from my quote of myself, or from what I have quoted of myself, are different from each other.

One has Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus while the other has Judas [the son] of James. I do not know the reason for this.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[beameup]

Apostle, not disciple-they are not synonymous terms.Although there are many passages that refers to the 12, as "disciples," with a particular reference to "the twelves," i.e., the term "disciple" was commonly used to refer specifically to the twelve apostles, all apostles were disciples, but all disciples are not apostles. To wit:

Luke 14 KJV
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Acts 6 KJV
1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. 2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said,


Luke 9 KJV

1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. ......

Luke 10 KJV

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.


Mark 3 KJV

7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judæa, 8 and from Jerusalem, and from Idumæa, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him. 9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him. 10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues. 11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. 12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. 14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: 16 and Simon he surnamed Peter; .

I corrected my post. Matthias was one of "the twelve".

 

[God's Truth]

Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 12-6. It is Yom, Day. It is Boker, Morning.

There were twelve apostles, then there were eleven.

Matthew 10:2-4 NKJV - Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Luke 6:13-16 NKJV - And when it was day, He called His disciples to [Himself]; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; Matthew and Thomas; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; Judas [the son] of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.

Luke 22:14 NKJV - When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him.

Revelation 21:14 NKJV - Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Mark 14:10 NKJV - Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Him to them.

Matthew 28:16 NKJV - Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them.

Mark 16:14 NKJV - Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Luke 24:9 NKJV - Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

Luke 24:33 NKJV - So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those [who were] with them gathered together,

Acts 1:26 NKJV - And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 2:14 NKJV - But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

Shalom.

Jacob

Judas WAS REPLACED.

Acts 1

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[Jacob]

Judas WAS REPLACED.

Acts 1

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Shalom.

Today is Shishi, 12-8.

I do not know who the following person is. He does not appear in both lists, as with the other Judas.

Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus

Simon the Cananite is Simon called the Zealot as far as I know.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[God's Truth]

Shalom.

Today is Shishi, 12-8.

I do not know who the following person is. He does not appear in both lists, as with the other Judas.

Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus

Simon the Cananite is Simon called the Zealot as far as I know.

Shalom.

Jacob

I have no idea why you can't understand that there were two Judas' and that one was a betrayer and was replace d later by a man named Matthias.

 

[Jacob]

I have no idea why you can't understand that there were two Judas' and that one was a betrayer and was replace d later by a man named Matthias.

Because there are two lists and in the second Judas is mentioned before the Judas Iscariot that you referred to by saying Judas.

 

[God's Truth]

Because there are two lists and in the second Judas is mentioned before the Judas Iscariot that you referred to by saying Judas.

So what?

 

[Jacob]

So what?

That is all.

I was not talking about Judas Iscariot. Then you did. And I do not know why.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[God's Truth]

That is all.

I was not talking about Judas Iscariot. Then you did. And I do not know why.

Shalom.

Jacob

And?

 

[Jacob]

And?

You may have been responding to something not from me in the thread. Otherwise I do not know what your point is.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[God's Truth]

You may have been responding to something not from me in the thread. Otherwise I do not know what your point is.

Shalom.

Jacob

And?

 

[Jacob]

And?

I don't know. You are talking about Judas Iscariot. Judas comes before him in one of the lists.

It may be self-explanatory that you meant Judas Iscariot rather than Judas being Judas [the son] of James as Judas Iscariot is also known as Judas which you know.

I do not know if Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus is the same person as Judas [the son] of James. There is a difference here, two names or two different people or two different lists.

Shalom.

Jacob