ECT The Remnant and The Multitude In Scripture and In Dispensationalist Theology

[northwye]

The Remnant and The Multitude In Scripture and In Dispensationalist Theology

I know this sounds like a huge topic. But while dispensationalism makes it important to divide Old Covenant Israel From the Body of Christ or from the Church, and some dispensationalists divide the Gospel of Christ into two different Gospels - Paul's Gospel and that of the other New Testament writers - in their interpretation of Galatians 2: 7, dispensationalism does not make a clear distinction between the remnant and the multitude. For example, in the dispensationalist view of Romans 11: 25-26 it is the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which is thought to be saved in the future.

Following Romans 9: 6-8, it would not be every one who is of the physical bloodline from Abraham who is to be saved. And Romans 11: 1-5, and Romans 11: 11-24 point out that the saved, which is the elect, are made up of a remnant from Old Covenant Israel and Gentiles who also believe. Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 28 teach that there is a unity between believing Jews and believing Gentiles in Christ.

In Romans 11: 1-5 Paul very briefly points to the meaning of the remnant of Israel by implication. He says "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5.Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

In history God has several times raised up a remnant, which is faithful to him, and has used that remnant to begin a new group of his people. The multitude, which has gone into false doctrines and false practices, and away from God, is cut off from God . That multitude, though, has tried to get back its position with God. For example, see: Malachi 1: 4-5.

There are statements in scripture on the qualifications for being in the remnant. "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zephaniah 3: 13

"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14: 5 Guile is from δολος, Strong's Greek: 1388, dolos, -- "a bait, fig. craft, deceit." The 144,000 are said to be without deception. And if we now live close to the last days Christ spoke about in John 6 we know that we now live in a time of great deception. Yet the 144,000 as a remnant is said not to be deceptive.

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14: 4

When Christ appeared in human flesh and went to the Cross, God fulfilled the prophecies of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 to turn Jerusalem (Israel) upside down and to make Israel again "another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." And in Acts 10 God used Peter to bring the Gospel to Cornelius, a non-Jew, and his people, beginning the fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea 2: 23 to make a people who were not before the people of God, the people of God. In other words, non-Jews were to be brought in to Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.

The cutting off of the multitude who were following the false doctrines as leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16: 6, Luke 12: 1), and beginning a new Israel in the remnant of Romans 11: 5 was a major transformation of Israel from the Old Covenant which operated in the physical to a New Covenant which operated in the spiritual.

It turned out that the transformation of Old Covenant Israel to the New Covenant in Christ Jesus, following his resurrection, was carried out in a remnant (Romans 11: 1-5), not by the multitude.

Revelation 12: 15-17 shows us a remnant which exists at a time when the serpent-dragon casts out a flood from his mouth - metaphorically. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17

But -
"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Dispensationalists sometimes seem to say that there is also no remnant of those claiming to be of the Body of Christ at times after the First Century when the remnant of Israel were alive.

https://soundoctrinedotorg.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/the-144000-and-the-multitiude.pdf

THE 144,000 AND THE MULTITUDE, By Sue Patterson, First Edition 2005, Second Edition, 2008

This book was developed in a series of audios or podcasts by Sue Patterson and Randy Maugans who were the moderators of a Christian Yahoo Group, The Threshing Floor.

 

[Danoh]

The 144,000

Chapter 1: The Sealing

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the
earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on
the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [2] And I saw another angel
ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried
with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth
and the sea, [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till
we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard
the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred
and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. –
Revelation 7:1-4

There are 12,000 of each of the twelve tribes that are sealed. How each one is placed in each one of these tribes is a mystery. It may have something to do with the characteristics of each
of the tribes, or an entirely different reason for placement within each of these tribes that is, as yet, unclear. But, really what matters, is not what tribe one may be in, but that you are counted
in the tribes that are sealed.

Two things are of note here. First, we see that the original tribe of Dan is replaced with the tribe of Manasseh. This is an interesting comparison to the twelve apostles and the removal of Judas who was then replaced with Paul by the Lord.

As evidenced by the above quote from the book you suggested, right off the bat, that book proves to be as much an attempt at a thing in absolute blindness to it as your above post, once more proved to be.

Paul neither replaced Judas, nor was he qualified to...

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Good luck finding Paul within their midst throughout that entire time...

1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Lots?

A practice divinely sanctioned at that time, as in...

Joshua 18:8 And the men arose, and went away: and Joshua charged them that went to describe the land, saying, Go and walk through the land, and describe it, and come again to me, that I may here cast lots for you before the LORD in Shiloh. Joshua 18:10 And Joshua cast lots for them in Shiloh before the LORD: and there Joshua divided the land unto the children of Israel according to their divisions

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

A little math, brainiac - "Matthias" and "the eleven apostles" makes Twevle.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Again, brainiac - "Peter" and "the eleven" makes Twelve.

Paul was not a replacement of Judas - Matthias was.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[northwye]

"Revelation 12: 15-17 shows us a remnant which exists at a time when the serpent-dragon casts out a flood from his mouth - metaphorically. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17

"But -
"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost"

"Dispensationalists sometimes seem to say that there is also no remnant of those claiming to be of the Body of Christ at times after the First Century when the remnant of Israel were alive."

If there is no remnant during the Church Age then by implication there would also be no significant apostasy in the theologies taught by the church.

Are there New Testament scriptures about a falling away from sound doctrine, and about false prophets arising?

Revelation 12: 17 does mention a remnant which is predicted in the First Century to come into existence, without a giving us a time when it will happen.

Several New Testament scriptures do predict a coming apostasy and the appearing of false prophets, again without saying when these things will occur.

 

[Danoh]

"Revelation 12: 15-17 shows us a remnant which exists at a time when the serpent-dragon casts out a flood from his mouth - metaphorically. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17

"But -
"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost"...

Now try citing, not what most Acts 2 Dispys like Dwight Pentecost hold on that, but what most Mid-Acts Dispys hold on it.

"Dispensationalists sometimes seem to say that there is also no remnant of those claiming to be of the Body of Christ at times after the First Century when the remnant of Israel were alive."

Again, try citing, not what most Acts 2 Dispys like Dwight Pentecost, hold on that, but what most Mid-Acts Dispys hold on it.

If there is no remnant during the Church Age then by implication there would also be no significant apostasy in the theologies taught by the church.

Sort of like asserting that if average U.S . citizens were not breaking Federal Law prior the passing of the Volstad Act (a change in Administration, Dispensation, or Economy, if there ever was one), then by implication, there would also be no significant apostasy on the part of said average U.S. citizens from Federal Law after said Federal Law (it would turn out) was (temporarily) changed.

After all, as you yourself noted...

Revelation 12: 17 does mention a remnant which is predicted in the First Century to come into existence, without [it] giving us a time when it will happen.

The very position on that, of most within Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

As for the present, the view is as follows - in Paul's day, there was a Believing Remnant of Israel. These people here:

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Which begs the question, who then was Paul preaching to, among the Jews?

To "the rest" that "were blinded."

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

As he reminds the Gentiles concerning said Unbelieving Israelites having been concluded blind...

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If you had bothered to watch that video by the Messianic Evangelistic group in Israel "ONE For Israel," and now, the video I followed that one up with, and if you were to look at both from the perspective I have herein VERY briefly laid out, you'd see that "ONE For Israel" itself, and was unwittingly formerly part of the Israel concluded in unbelief, down through their generations, all the way back to when God sealed the Believing Remnant of Israel, concluded the rest in Unbelief or in spiritual Uncircumcision with Gentiles, and then saved their chief, Israelite, Uncircumcision sinner against Him, and commissioned him to go to both Jew and Gentile with a gospel of - the Uncircumcision.

For Paul himself includes himself as having formerly been of Israel's concluded Uncircumcision number, in verse 3, of the following...

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

As for Israel's Believing Remnant?

They died off in the first century, having to leave their Prophesied Promise to another day (Isaiah 66, to be exact), a delay in THEIR Promise that Paul explained to them (compare Acts 3 with 2 Peter 3, etc.).

In other words, after Unbelieving Israel was concluded blind, under sin, Uncircumcision with the Gentiles, at Acts 7, see the end of Acts 7 cited below, and the end of Romans 2, and what I quoted from Romans 3 - well, from that point forward, lost Jews saved into the Body via Paul's gospel of - surprise, surprise - the UNCIRCUMCISION - were saved into God's New Creature: The Body.

But as formerly lost Jews.

Not as Believing Remnant, for that distinction was temporarily no longer the case, and will not be again, of a Believing Israelite, until at some point after the fullness of God's UNCIRCUMCISION salvation, be come in.

That is the view of most within Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, on this.

When Paul in Galatians 2 writes that those Apostles of the Circumcision (and the Circumcision leader, James) agreed to confine their ministry to the Circumcision, he is referring to their having agreed to confine their ministry to those of Israel who had believed (Believing Remnant) before "the rest" of Israel was temporarily concluded in unbelief, or Uncircumcision with the Gentiles.

Exactly what said Circumcision Apostles (and James) did, as their writings repeatedly evidence.

In contrast, Paul's ministry had been to "the rest" of Israel and the Gentiles - both as Uncircumcision, even now.

Uncircumcision Israelites:

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

That right there was as much a failure to keep the Law in faith, as any other aspect of keeping the Law in faith.

Notice...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Result?

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That right there matches exactly what the Lord said about them, in John 5:44, cited herein above.

Result, just before their chief sinner was saved - in Uncircumcision himself?

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

But for this Uncircumcision Salvation, now...

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

What a change in Dispensational Identities.

It can be confusing.

But it also can be, and is worth, properly...sorting out.

Indeed, doing so is a must - lest one end up wise, in one's own conceits.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[northwye]

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.

Dispensationalism focuses more on dividing scripture up to fit its bent for a systematic theology than it is concerned with presenting the Gospel of Christ in a way which actually does produce New Creatures (II Corinthians 5: 17 and Galatians 6: 16).

Reformation theology did not try to present such a systematic theology based upon the opening postulate that God has two groups of the elect and two different programs.

Reformation theology would not have created theological doctrines which contradict some New Testament scriptures as dispensationalism does.

John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4 deal with the doctrine that God has one group of his elect, not two groups as dispensationalism postulates. Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 28 focus on the doctrine that there is a unity of all who are in faith, regardless of their genetics, that is, that there is a unity between believing Gentiles and believing Jews. This contradicts dispensationalim's postulate that God has two separate peoples Old Covenant Israel and the Church. Romans 2: 28-29 is a little more subtle, but these two verses imply that there is a transformation for Jews who come to faith in Christ, and for them things of the flesh, are no longer important but things of the Spirit are important. This is not in line with the dispensationalist system, which apparently continues to honor the physical bloodline from Abraham.

II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Hebrews 10: 9, and Hebrews 8: 13 all say that the Old Covenant was done away with, disagreeing with a fundamental assumption of dispensationalism, that the Old Covenant continues with its Old Covenant people, along with the Church.

Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 27-29 say that God decides who is saved by faith and not by that which is physical, Paul says in Galatians 3: 14 'That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. " "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither there is neither male nor female : for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Reformation theology, more than dispensationalism, tried to inspire people to become born again as New Creatures by the Gospel through the Spirit.

Look at what John Calvin says about Galatians 6: 15 - "https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/galatians-6.htm

"The reason why he is crucified to the world, and the world to him, is, that in Christ, to whom he is spiritually united, nothing but a new creature is of any avail. Everything else must be dismissed, must perish. I refer to those things which hinder the renewing of the Spirit. “If any man be in Christ” says he, “let him be a new creature.” (2 Corinthians 5:17.) That is, if any man wishes to be considered as belonging to the kingdom of Christ, let him be created anew by the Spirit of God; let him not live any longer to himself or to the world, but let him be raised up to “newness of life.” (Romans 6:4.) His reasons for concluding that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any importance, have been already considered. The truth of the gospel swallows up, and brings to nought, all the shadows of the law. "

"And upon the Israel of God (101) This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, — and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith, (Galatians 3:29,) and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church. On the contrary, the name and lineage are the sole boast of Israel according to the flesh; and this led the apostle to argue in the Epistle to the Romans, that “they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.” (Romans 9:6.) "

 

[Danoh]

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.

Dispensationalism focuses more on dividing scripture up to fit its bent for a systematic theology than it is concerned with presenting the Gospel of Christ in a way which actually does produce New Creatures (II Corinthians 5: 17 and Galatians 6: 16).

Reformation theology did not try to present such a systematic theology based upon the opening postulate that God has two groups of the elect and two different programs.

Reformation theology would not have created theological doctrines which contradict some New Testament scriptures as dispensationalism does.

John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4 deal with the doctrine that God has one group of his elect, not two groups as dispensationalism postulates. Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 28 focus on the doctrine that there is a unity of all who are in faith, regardless of their genetics, that is, that there is a unity between believing Gentiles and believing Jews. This contradicts dispensationalim's postulate that God has two separate peoples Old Covenant Israel and the Church. Romans 2: 28-29 is a little more subtle, but these two verses imply that there is a transformation for Jews who come to faith in Christ, and for them things of the flesh, are no longer important but things of the Spirit are important. This is not in line with the dispensationalist system, which apparently continues to honor the physical bloodline from Abraham.

II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Hebrews 10: 9, and Hebrews 8: 13 all say that the Old Covenant was done away with, disagreeing with a fundamental assumption of dispensationalism, that the Old Covenant continues with its Old Covenant people, along with the Church.

Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 27-29 say that God decides who is saved by faith and not by that which is physical, Paul says in Galatians 3: 14 'That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. " "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither there is neither male nor female : for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Reformation theology, more than dispensationalism, tried to inspire people to become born again as New Creatures by the Gospel through the Spirit.

Look at what John Calvin says about Galatians 6: 15 - "https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/galatians-6.htm

"The reason why he is crucified to the world, and the world to him, is, that in Christ, to whom he is spiritually united, nothing but a new creature is of any avail. Everything else must be dismissed, must perish. I refer to those things which hinder the renewing of the Spirit. “If any man be in Christ” says he, “let him be a new creature.” (2 Corinthians 5:17.) That is, if any man wishes to be considered as belonging to the kingdom of Christ, let him be created anew by the Spirit of God; let him not live any longer to himself or to the world, but let him be raised up to “newness of life.” (Romans 6:4.) His reasons for concluding that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any importance, have been already considered. The truth of the gospel swallows up, and brings to nought, all the shadows of the law. "

"And upon the Israel of God (101) This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, — and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith, (Galatians 3:29,) and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church. On the contrary, the name and lineage are the sole boast of Israel according to the flesh; and this led the apostle to argue in the Epistle to the Romans, that “they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.” (Romans 9:6.) "

Wrong again.

Darby wrote that it was while he was attempting to sort out through Scripture the religious legalism he had been in bondage to prior to his studies in Scripture about the Believer's Complete standing in Christ, that he began to note differences between Israel's lack in that, and the Body's.

It was from that that he began to note other differences.

You, in your so ever obvious books based reasoning, have the the man's cart, before his horse - literally.

I myself began to come to the Mid-Acts Dispensationalism I hold to, simply through time in Scripture on my own, about a year and a half before I'd ever even heard of Dispensationalism, or that there were others put there who saw similar distinctions

Prior to that, I'd had no background on the Bible. None. Prior to that, I'd been in the World.

I did have a life-long developed skill at looking at most things in life in general as to how they fit together, my childhood, one of doing just that - with toys, and pens, and chairs, you name it, I was forever in trouble for having taken one thing or another apart, out of my endless curiosity - even now - with their various parts, and how they contribute to the whole they are a part of.

This pet peeve of yours and your kind - that early Dispensationalists came to the Scripture with a Dispensational framework in mind, is ridiculous.

On the one hand you assert it did not exist prior to Darby, on the other, you unwittingly assert he came to the Bible with it already in hand.

That just shows how illogical your approach to these issues is.

And how oblivious you are to this about your approach.

You and your kind all parrot this same, exact, books based incompetence of yours.

It is why there is no reasoning with your kind.

Nehemiah 8:8.

 

[northwye]

Dispensationalists might want to change the topic or focus of a thread away from a study of the remnant and the multitude in scripture and in dispensationalism. This is because dispensationalism does not deal much with the remnant and the multitude, and so dispensationalists do not have a great deal of undestanding of this subject.

See: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/remnant-of-israel

"REMNANT OF ISRAEL (Heb. שְׁאֵרִית יִשְׂרָאֵל), a term denoting the belief that the future of Israel would be assured by the faithful remnant surviving the calamities that would befall the people as a result of their departing from the way of God. On the one hand the prophets foretold the forthcoming exile and destruction of Israel, and on the other they held forth the hope and promise of its survival and eternity. The doctrine of the Surviving Remnant resolved this contradiction. The doctrine is referred to by most of the prophets. Thus Micah (2:12) states, "I will surely gather the remnant of Israel"; Jeremiah (23:3) "and I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries whither I have driven them and will bring them back to their folds, and they shall be fruitful and multiply." Joel promises, "For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape and among the remnant those whom the Lord shall call" (3:5), and the first half of the verse is repeated almost literally by Obadiah (v. 17).

It is in Isaiah, however, that the doctrine is found in its most developed form which greatly affected Israel's thoughts about the future. He gives his son the symbolic name Shear-Jashub ("a remnant shall return," 7:3) and in 10:22 the phrase is repeated as a statement of fact "a remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob." The most detailed description of the doctrine appears in 6:13. The land shall be utterly destroyed, the children of Israel will be "removed far away," only a tenth will remain – even that tenth "shall again be eaten up" but "the holy seed" shall remain. Isaiah's concept of the remnant may have included both the faithful minority and those who would accept God's message, under the impact of the forthcoming disaster. Paul applied Isaiah's teaching to the Church (Rom. 9:27)."

Romans 9: 27 says "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" Romans 9: 27-32

Note that Paul is making a somewhat subtle statement in Romans 9: 27-32. He is quoting Isaiah 10: 22. "For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness." Then Paul in Romans 9: 30-33 points out that the Gentiles. "which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith." But Paul says Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, did not attain to the law of righteousness, because they sought it not by faith, but by the works of the law (verse 31).

What does the remnant, quoted from Isaiah 10: 22, have to do in Romans 9: 27-33. have to do with the fact that some Gentiles attained to righteousness by faith in Christ, while much of Israel, did not attain to righteousness because they sought it by the law and not by faith?

In Romans 11: 1-5 Paul returns to his point in quoting Isaiah 10: 22 on the remnant. And again Paul is subtle, and there is danger that what he is saying can be misunderstood - the transformation of the mind in being born again (John 3: 1-6, Romans 12: 2) which is an outcome of faith, makes it less likely that Paul will be misunderstood.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

When dispensationalists take Romans 11: 1-2 to mean in isolation from the whole of Romans 11: 1-5, that Paul is saying God has not cast away the multitude of Old Covenant Israel because of their physical bloodline, they are misunderstanding Paul on the remnant of Israel, which he points to in his quote of Isaiah 10: 22.

Paul is saying, in a subtle way, even in Romans 9: 27-33 that only a remnant of Old Covenant Israel will become the elect under the New Covenant, by their faith in Christ. This is not exactly dispensationalist theology.

 

[Danoh]

Dispensationalists might want to change the topic or focus of a thread away from a study of the remnant and the multitude in scripture and in dispensationalism....

:rotfl:

You're actually that incompetent - that you repeatedly pick the fight with your assertion that "Dispensationalists read Dispensationalism into the Bible," and then see a Dispy's response to said false charge, as an attempt to distract from what you are going on about.

Isaiah 8:8

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There is no remnant. That is a fantasy concocted by people who deny the historical fact that the Catholic Church is the only Church that reaches back to Christ historically.

 

[john w]

There is no remnant. That is a fantasy concocted by people who deny the historical fact that the Catholic Church is the only Church that reaches back to Christ historically.

Keep telling yourself that, Catholic drone, as the religious prostitute, know as The Roman Catholic Organization, AKA, The Pied Piper, leads you, off a cliff, down to hell...


Acts 7:38 KJV

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Catholic con artists: This is the Catholic "church," which predates "The Flintstones," as "our fathers" was actually the beginnings of "popes....cardinals...monsignors....Jesuits....monks...."....................in the bible, obviously.


Zechariah 8:23 KJV

Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Roman Catholic shills: That reference to "the skirt of him that is a Jew," is actually a reference to prophecy re. Catholic "nuns," another obviously biblical doctrine. Just don't pull on Superman's cape, or the skirt of a nun-you will get smacked.



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