The great tribulation is the 70th week of GOD's revelation to the prophet Daniel by Gabriel for Israel.
You are the one who made it an issue and then when you're proven to be wrong you then say that's it's a non-issue.
ECT The Rapture: Kept From the Hour of Trial
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
The great tribulation is the 70th week of GOD's revelation to the prophet Daniel by Gabriel for Israel.
You are the one who made it an issue and then when you're proven to be wrong you then say that's it's a non-issue.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The word "the" in this verse is clearly referring to the great tribulation:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).
The words "the tribulation of those days" refer to a specific tribulation, and that tribulation will be over by the time when the Lord Jesus is seen in the sky.
Are you willing to argue that has already happened?
TweetyBird
New member
It's non issue. Here is a list of translations and version that do not use "the" great trib in Rev 7:14:
Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1534, Coverdale 1535, The Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587, Mace N.T. 1729, Whiston's N.T. 1745, Haweis N.T. 1795, Webster's translation 1833, Living Oracles 1835 "come out of much tribulation", William Godbey N.T. 1902 - "coming up out of great tribulation", Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta 1933, The Word of Yah 1993, The KJV 21st Century Version 1994, God's First Truth 1999, The Tomson New Testament 2002, The Evidence Bible 2003, The Resurrection Life New Testament 2005 (Vince Garcia), Bond Slave Version 2009, the Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, The Jubilee Bible 2010, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible 2011, the BRG Bible 2012 and the Modern English Version 2014.
Other Versions -
John Wesley's N.T. 1755, Worsley Version 1770 - "who come out of great affliction"
Murdock translation 1852, Sawyer N.T. 1858, Holy Scriptures VW Edition 2010 - "came out from great affliction",
Weymouth 1912 - "passed through the great distress"
American Bible Union N.T. 1865, Faithful N.T. 1999, Concordant Version 2006 - "came out of the great affliction"
Bible in Basic English 1961 - "who came through the great testing"
Twentieth Century N.T. 1904 - "come through the Great Persecution"
New Life Version 1969 - "who came out of the time of much trouble"
The Worldwide English New Testament 1998 - “These are the people who have had much trouble.”
The New American Bible Revised 2010 - “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress”
Conservative Bible 2011 - "came out of the Great Oppression"
A Translation for Translators 2011 - “These are the people whom others have caused to suffer greatly”
International Standard Version 2014 - "who are coming out of the terrible suffering"
The Common English Bible 2011 - “These people have come out of great hardship.”
The Names of God Bible 2011 - “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering.”
The Voice 2012 - “These are coming from the time of great suffering and affliction.”
The Jonathan Mitchell N.T. 2014 - "These are the ones continuously coming forth from out of the midst of great pressure"
TweetyBird
New member
Jesus did not say THE GREAT TRIB. Jesus' return brings an end to tribulation on earth [an ongoing trib since He ascended], but for the unbelievers, it will never end - theirs is eternal torment.
My position, based on the Biblical text, is that great trib has been happening all over the world for 2000 years and Christians have been as much a part of if as everyone else, just as Jesus stated, as well as other NT writers. "those days" are the days after His ascension until He returns. There is no "pre-trib" rapture. We all have been in great trib and will continue to be until the end of this earth age.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What about the words of the lord Jesus which speak of the things which will precede that great tribulation?:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:15-21).
Are you willing to argue that 2000 years ago the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place?
I know there are 'translations' that don't use the definite article.
The original Greek texts use the definite article for both nouns.
The translators didn't see it as pertinent to use the article because of their eschatological understanding or lack thereof.
They had no clue about the argument that you and I are now having.
Word for word interlinears use the two definite articles....if they are true to their work.
I am saved from the wrath to come.
Interplanner
Well-known member
There is no great tribulation in sense that it is a brand name. What happened in Judea was the time of incredible upheaval that Mt24A was talking about, and then there is the little rebellion of Rev 20 in which the believers are harrassed at the end of this age. Mt24A was about the things that happened in Judea to that land.
No.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
No.
The tribulation after which Christ returns, is speaking of events of the 6 seals of Rev. and not the great tribulation of Gods wrath of the vials.
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
those are all images of what happened in Judea; the first page of the Rev says it was at hand, immediate, now.
Rev 20, 21 therefore match 2 Pet 3.
TweetyBird
New member
Yes, in 70AD when the Romans destroyed the physical temple. That passage has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. We know this because the AofD was never mentioned again. After the destruction of the Temple great tribulation continues and has been ever since. It is interesting to look at world history for the last 2000 years, including natural phenom. You really miss a lot of info by ignoring that source.
TweetyBird
New member
That has already been fulfilled.
TweetyBird
New member
It had nothing to do with that. There was no doctrine of a pre-trib rapture in the 17th century. The rapture theory came about in 1800s and promoted by John Darby and later by Scofield's Bible which got people on board with it by the millions.
Jacob's trouble, which the Lord Jesus Christ said they would be delivered up with great tribulation, will happen.
Matthew 24 is Jacob's trouble. AKA, great tribulation. I'm not sure what you are trying to say, which might be intentional knowing you.
Paul said we are saved from the wrath to come. We being the Body of Christ which clearly does not include you.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I'm saying Jesus was not a space-case who spoke urgently to people...about things that would happen X000 years in the future. Mt 24A is about that generation, specifically the end of it, when the great revolt aka the Jewish War (Josephus' title) broke out in 66 AD. That's the case to v29. That's why there are so many things pinned to THAT generation, place, temple. That's why Dan 9 is quoted about desolation, because that 490 years was ending. (Notice how the last v of Dan 9 is 'elastic'--the end could take quite a while to end).
That was the incredible upheaval that took place because that generation especially should have listened to the one greater than Moses and Solomon. Only those Jewish christians who left and who continued in God's mission to the nations enjoyed blessing.
Learn the basic facts of history of that generation before you go on . You get to about 64 AD with the book of Acts; you have to collect things from elsewhere after that.
TweetyBird
New member
The wrath to come is Judgment Day.
Interplanner
Well-known member
True, but there is the harrassment of the saints in Rev 20 before the enemies of christ are destroyed by his breath.
70 AD is not it. The Lord Jesus Christ said that some of them would still be alive when he returned to restore Israel. They all died. Stones are still upon each other. The western wall is still standing. The Romans did that on their own, it was not God pouring out tribulation on Israel, purging them of their evil.