ECT The objective and subjective parts of salvation

[Interplanner]

As you can tell from the expression 'being born again' (even in the text!) it is an image; it is not the actual, literal thing he was talking about. Even Nic asked him about that, and found out he was using a figure of speech.

There are two parts of salvation:
1, the work of God in Christ in history for us; this is justification; it is objective. It is the Gospel.
2, the work of God in us through the Spirit. This is sanctification or renewal; it is subjective. It is the effect or result of the Gospel, not the Gospel itself.
All there is is confusion if these two are mixed. "If the Gospel is lost, all is lost and darkness." --Luther

You don't impute being born again. You have to have a thing of set value (for ex., in finance, it would be $1M. It would not be a banker saying 'I wish the best for you.'). That is what Christ's righteousness is, for our debt of sin. When God was in Christ, he was covering the shortfall of our debt, ie, reconciling those accounts. He made Christ a sin offering, so that we could have the righteousness of God in Christ.

This is why several key parables and incidents in Christ's work refer to the debt, not the stain, of sin:
the disreputable woman in Lk 7 (those who love much were forgiven much debt),
the unforgiving manager in Mt 18,
the shrewd manager in Lk 17 who cuts his friends debts in half ON PAPER,
"forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"
etc.

The verb that shows what kind of activity justification is are about debt: 'logizo' is is to transfer,
to credit,
to account,
to regard (in spite of reality, Rom 4:17; this verb is 'kaleo'),
to qualify (for a grant or for something of huge value beyond a person's own assets, ie, a mortgage).

Here is an example of negative imputation. An orphan from the civil war was living in an orphanage in the South and was being teased and bullied by the other boys. One day the house mother had had enough and caught this unfortunate orphan with something from the kitchen that the boys had framed him for. She punished him with a week's detention, he says in his biography, IMPUTING all the things the other boys had done to him. He got "credit" for it. We got "credit" for Adam's sins, Rom 5B.

"The gospel of the changed-life has replaced the Gospel that changes lives." --Bible college pres. G. Paxton. Reminding us not to confuse #1 and #2; not to confuse cause and effect.

 

[Nick M]

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

There is no subjective part of salvation. I have moved from death to life, you are still dead.

John 3 is the resurrection of Israel and proselytes as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel. You are the teacher of Israel and you know not these things?

 

[Interplanner]

Rom 5B is very objective of course, but there are both parts to salvation (not to justification). There is some inner change and transformation. That takes place in the subject (us) not in Christ nor in our standing or credit with Him.

I find the resurrection of Israel theme in Jn 3 to be very fascinating. It can also correct the subjectivity of the popular pitch 'to be born again.' Please explain further.

 

[Danoh]

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

There is no subjective part of salvation. I have moved from death to life, you are still dead.

John 3 is the resurrection of Israel and proselytes as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel. You are the teacher of Israel and you know not these things?

At the same time; there is a subjective part - His - His death; His life.

Not our own - "not of works" - but His.

Its what these people do not get; that we have been identified with that. That; in God's eyes, His Son's death was our death...in His... His life is ours... in Him.

This is basic, foundational Romans 101 "instruction in righteousness" 2 Tim. 3:16-17, that Paul, at the end of Romans - Rom. 16:25 - summarizes God "is of power to stablish" the Believer in the truth of "according to my gospel," etc.

This is 2 Timothy 3:16-17's basic, Romans 5 - 8 "doctrine."

Paul relates much of that throughout Romans thru Philemon. Example:

Romans 5:

1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

We received all that "by faith." Thus, Paul's later words - how that; in the same manner...

Colossians 2:

6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Interplanner]

In the OP of this thread, objective means those things accomplished in Christ. Subjective means those things accomplished in the believer.

Rom 16's finale is not about the individual life of the believer. It is about that whole church being established in what is no longer mystery about the nations, not only in Rome where Jews returned after eviction under Claudius, but all over. All over, the nations were believing because the age referred to in the prophets was underway, unstoppable.

 

[ttruscott]

...

There are two parts of salvation:
1, the work of God in Christ in history for us; this is justification; it is objective. It is the Gospel.
2, the work of God in us through the Spirit. This is sanctification or renewal; it is subjective. It is the effect or result of the Gospel, not the Gospel itself.
All there is is confusion if these two are mixed.

...

This post gets a rep!

If I may suggest:

The gospel justification gets us reborn, that is it allows GOD to work with us favourably and not with judgement since we are sinners.

Rebirth frees us from the enslaving addiction to evil so we can choose righteousness by our free will, the freedom of: Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. the renewal of Ephesians 4:23.

But since we remember the pleasures and profits of sin we do indeed choose to indulge and that is where the discipline of our newly renewed free will is chastised painfully (Heb 12:5-11) until we will always choose righteousness by our free will and sin never again, being heaven ready.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes it creates a very different way of motivation.

One of the least recognized lines of the parable of the unforgiving manager in Mt 18 is when he treats his sub-manager harshly and wants everything paid back because he (the manager) thought he was on a payment plan. He was not! the debt was dismissed, not put on a payment plan. Payment plans make people harsh, and he treated his underling that way. He was supposed to treat him the same dismissed way.

Why do people do this? It is because they think God has put them on a payment plan, and sins debt is supposed to be "worked off" over time. They missed the point. It takes dismissal to change our way of thinking utterly.