The Manchild of Rev 12 by J.A. Siess . . himself a Dispensational

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THE MANCHILD . . excerpted from his lectures "The Apocalypse"
*
By *J. A. SEISS, D.D.
*
A landmark in the exposition of the Manchild is that the birth is not consummated before the period of the end of this Age. *It is not fully accomplished till the day of judgment comes. *This child is unborn until the period of the end is reached.
*
There is a peculiar manliness ascribed to this child. *It is not only "a man child," as our English version renders the phrase, but more literally "a son, a male," or a son who is a male. *There is special emphasis laid upon the masculinity. *The letter of the description is such as to prove that this child is collective and composite the same as the mother, and likewise includes people of both sexes. *The Greek ... which means male, has the peculiarity of being in the neuter gender, and so applies to both men and women, and cannot apply to any one individual. *Sex, however, is not so much the subject of this word ... as the higher qualities of manhood common to both men and women. *A body of persons is here meant, and, this body includes women as well as men, and men as well as women. *But it is a body at the same time distinguished throughout with a special masculinity, which knows no sex; that is, with the most manly of virtues and the most vigorous and heroic of characteristics. *By this man-child we understand saints begotten of the Holy Ghost, and pervaded with the highest qualities of virtue, courage, self-denial, and strength. *They are all conquerors. *They all have overcome the world, triumphed over the powers of darkness, won the race of faith, through the grace of God possessed themselves of titles to everlasting crowns and honours. *Their masculinity in these respects is unquestionable and most intense, whether they be men or women as to sex. *Here we find all the noblest and best of the race, and the embodiment of the highest virtue and wisdom that ever pulsated in the arteries of humanity. *Here is the proper "man-child" if ever there was or will be one upon earth.
*
He is to reign, with unrivaled and irresistible authority and power over the world. *He is to govern, discipline, and control all the peoples of the earth (during the subsequent millennium of a thousand years), as a shepherd deals with his flock. *To shepherdize with an iron sceptre, is to exercise a dominion which is inflexible, irrefragable, and that cannot be withstood. *Strength, absoluteness, and perpetuity of rule, is unmistakably indicated; and that rule is specifically said to be over "all the nations." *It is universal. *This is not true of any king or state in any period from the beginning of the world till now.
*
This child is the special object of Satan’s murderous malignity. *It is on the child’s account that he assails the woman, takes his station before her, and stirs up all his power to hinder and destroy. *It is not so much she, as the child, that he is bent to devour. *Here is something peculiar, special, and against which all the malice of hell is aroused and concentrated. *We can very well understand this, and the tremendous painting comes out in all its significance, when we see in this Child the collective body of God’s true saints. *To devour these, or to stop these from reaching the kingdom and thwart their exaltation to the authority and dominion for which they are destined, is the great malignant intent of the Dragon. *Their success is his defeat. *Hence this intent of the unparalleled attempt to overwhelm them at the final extremity.
*
It is, in fact, their great and glorious Birth into immortality and everlasting life in glory at the Second Advent of Christ (1 Cor. 15: 51-52; 1 Thess. 4: 16-17). *Prior to then, the saints are indeed generated, begotten, quickened by the Holy Ghost, and full of prophetic yearning for what is beyond; but they are still invisible, hidden, inclosed, restrained, disabled. *A birth is a manifestation, a bringing to the light, the making visible of what was before invisible. *And so the Scriptures speak of "the manifestation of the sons of God," which in this present order of things is expected and yearned after, but which only takes place at the coming of Christ (Rom, 8: 19). *All these belong to what is subsequently called "the first resurrection" to which "everything belongs that is raised to immortality before the last day." And so we are taught as Ambrose, and Luther and Kromayer admit, that other particular resurrections and translations of certain eminent saints occur at intervals preceding the full completion of the glorified company.
*
Behold, then, the dignity and glory of the Christian calling. having put on Christ, we belong to a fellowship, for which the sublimest things are reserved. *Living a life of faith on the Son of God, we are maturing for a wondrous accouchement. *These wrappings and disabilities of time are soon to give place to the liberty and blessedness of a glorious immortality. *Instead of these aches, and ills, and toils, and disabilities and many anxieties, shall presently be the elastic vigour and untiring strength which we now see in the angels. *Instead of these doubts, and fears, and contests with evil in and around us, there shall be accomplished redemption, beyond all further vicissitude or danger. *And for these crosses shall come crowns of imperishable dominion with Jesus. *It amazes and confounds me when I attempt to survey the astounding changes that await the faithful. *I am overwhelmed with the sublimities of exaltation and power which are set before the poor sinful children of men in the Revelations of God.
*
We are often disheartened with our hardships and trials and begin to think it too hard a thing for us to be Christians. Nature is so weak and depraved; there is such a burden in this incessant toil and self-denial and watchfulness and prayer; the way is so steep and narrow and difficult; we are tempted again and again to give up. *But when we think what the dear Lord has done for us, what glories He has set before us, what victories are to come to us, what princedoms and thrones in the great empire of eternity await us, and how sure is all if we only press on for the prize; we have the profoundest reason to rejoice and give thanks every day that we live, that such opportunities have been vouchsafed to us, were the sufferings even tenfold severer than they are.
*
Blessed be God for His holy Church! *Blessed be God that He has called us to be members of it. *Blessed be God, that every faithful one in it is on the way, to a glorious birth-hour to immortal regency and power. *Only let us see to it, that we rightly appreciate our mercies, and give diligence to make our calling and election sure. *And "the God of all grace who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered awhile, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. *To whom be glory and dominion for ever and ever. *Amen."
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Though much time has passsed since this understanding fron Dr. Siess that no doubt has caused some of us to reevaluate our thinking, I nevertheless still highly recommend obtaining this whole lecture series titled, "The Apocalypse" for a very well rounded understanding of the time of the end as given us in the book of Revelations.
*
 

beameup

New member
Revelation is "decoded" by carefully linking it with selected passages from the Old Testament. Obviously, some enjoy speculating and bloviating, as they fail to understand the "Jewishness" of Revelation.
 

Danoh

New member
That long quote of your OP reminded me of hearing R.C. Sproul; a man obviously passionately in love with the sound of his own voice, as he prattles on...and on...and on... :chuckle:

A writer and or speaker ever faces that temptation.

And the more well informed about one's subject; the greater the temptation to write to impress oneself.

I suspect that kind of thing is behind too many of the difficulties between posters. Thus; why so many are so easily offended when disagreed with; and or intolerant of any view other than their own.

In such moments - one oneself, is the issue.

One buddy of mine who rarely ever appears to be speaking from within that temptation; even he at times will say a thing that makes it clear he gave in to a momentary need for "look at me; look at me!" :chuckle:

This just proves once more why Christ had to die in our stead.

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
 

Epoisses

New member
Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.  10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundancec of her glory.  12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. Isa. 66:5-14

The woman is the new Jerusalem or the bride of Christ and the male child is a nation or the 12 tribes that will be brought forth in one day. 1948 was not the fulfillment.
 

northwye

New member
Revelation 12 shows us a broad sweep of time in the history of redemption. "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation 12: 5

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." Isaiah 66: 7

"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." Revelation 2: 27

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Revelation 19: 15

Who is "he" other than Jesus Christ?
 

Epoisses

New member
Who is "he" other than Jesus Christ?

The male child could represent one of the two witnesses who are caught up to God and his throne or the spiritual nation of Israel that is brought forth in one day. The preaching of Peter at Pentecost when thousands were converted in a day is an example of some future fulfillment of the gospel commission when thousands will be converted in a day.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Revelation 12 shows us a broad sweep of time in the history of redemption. "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation 12: 5

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." Isaiah 66: 7

"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." Revelation 2: 27

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Revelation 19: 15

Who is "he" other than Jesus Christ?

He = Jesus and his multi-membered Body of those as He is. What do you suppose the very elect are going to be doing, sitting around drinking ice cream sodas?
 

Epoisses

New member
Rev. 12 is speaking to the last days because the dragon has seven heads and ten horns which is the final phase of the beast. There will literally be a war in the skies between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. This war will make WWII look like a spat between Kobe and Shaq.
 

northwye

New member
Those in the present day evangelical Capital C Church have long been taught to apply a literal interpretation to John's prophecies in Revelation, and especially in chapters 6 to 22. Here is the reason:

"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

Lewis S. Chafer, a follower of Scofield and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, says "The outstanding characteristic of the dispensationalist is... That he believes every statement of the Bible and gives to it the plain, natural meaning its words imply." L. S. Chafer, 'Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 417.

"Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation. This means interpretation which gives to every word the same meaning it would have in normal usage, whether employed in writing, speaking or thinking." From: Charles C. Ryrie, Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1965, page 86.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Scripture is too subtle for the guy who is in the spiritual condition of
the natural man who does not discern the things of the Spirit in I
Corinthians 2: 14.. So dispensationalism or Christian Zionism changed the
interpretation of the Bible to supposedly make it consistent with a
theology honoring the chosen people of the Old Covenant by their physical bloodline.

Even those who do not claim to be dispensationalists or Christian Zionists but were taught by the evangelical churches tend to follow Scofield's doctrine that scripture should be interpreted literally.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." Revelation 12: 14-15

This is metaphor. The woman here is much like the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26, which is above, is free and is the mother of us all - meaning the mother of all the elect of God. The woman of Revelation 12: 14 or the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26 are not literally taken into the wilderness by a big eagle. The serpent-dragon does not literally cast a flood out of his mouth. And the beast out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11: 7 does not himself literally kill the Two Witnesses, and the Two Witnesses is metaphoric also. Hebrews 13: 13-14, in saying let us go to him without the camp, offers us a key to the going into a metaphoric wilderness, where the "camp" is the Church. The flood out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent metaphor points to the flood of lies which he inspires the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 to speak and write. But the remnant of Revelation 12:17, who the dragon-serpent goes to make war with, has the testimony of Jesus Christ at a time when the woman is in the wilderness with her seed the remnant, and the dragon is inspiring the false prophets to speak lies.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Those in the present day evangelical Capital C Church have long been taught to apply a literal interpretation to John's prophecies in Revelation, and especially in chapters 6 to 22. Here is the reason:

"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

Lewis S. Chafer, a follower of Scofield and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, says "The outstanding characteristic of the dispensationalist is... That he believes every statement of the Bible and gives to it the plain, natural meaning its words imply." L. S. Chafer, 'Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 417.

"Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation. This means interpretation which gives to every word the same meaning it would have in normal usage, whether employed in writing, speaking or thinking." From: Charles C. Ryrie, Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1965, page 86.


Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Scripture is too subtle for the guy who is in the spiritual condition of
the natural man who does not discern the things of the Spirit in I
Corinthians 2: 14.. So dispensationalism or Christian Zionism changed the
interpretation of the Bible to supposedly make it consistent with a
theology honoring the chosen people of the Old Covenant by their physical bloodline.

Even those who do not claim to be dispensationalists or Christian Zionists but were taught by the evangelical churches tend to follow Scofield's doctrine that scripture should be interpreted literally.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." Revelation 12: 14-15

This is metaphor. The woman here is much like the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26, which is above, is free and is the mother of us all - meaning the mother of all he elect of God. The woman of Revelation 12 14 and the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26 are not literally taken into the wilderness by a big eagle. The serpent-dragon does not literally cast a flood out of his mouth. And the beast out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11: 7 does not himself literally kill the Two Witnesses, and the Two Witnesses is metaphoric also.



I don't know if they were that literal after all. They wanted to be when convenient. But while in ch 1 with its reference to things about to happen very soon, immediately, they say 'but in God's timing, that could be X000 years'. At which point, I'm done.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Those in the present day evangelical Capital C Church have long been taught to apply a literal interpretation to John's prophecies in Revelation, and especially in chapters 6 to 22. Here is the reason:

"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

Lewis S. Chafer, a follower of Scofield and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, says "The outstanding characteristic of the dispensationalist is... That he believes every statement of the Bible and gives to it the plain, natural meaning its words imply." L. S. Chafer, 'Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 417.

"Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation. This means interpretation which gives to every word the same meaning it would have in normal usage, whether employed in writing, speaking or thinking." From: Charles C. Ryrie, Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1965, page 86.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Scripture is too subtle for the guy who is in the spiritual condition of
the natural man who does not discern the things of the Spirit in I
Corinthians 2: 14.. So dispensationalism or Christian Zionism changed the
interpretation of the Bible to supposedly make it consistent with a
theology honoring the chosen people of the Old Covenant by their physical bloodline.

Even those who do not claim to be dispensationalists or Christian Zionists but were taught by the evangelical churches tend to follow Scofield's doctrine that scripture should be interpreted literally.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." Revelation 12: 14-15

This is metaphor. The woman here is much like the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26, which is above, is free and is the mother of us all - meaning the mother of all the elect of God. The woman of Revelation 12: 14 or the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26 are not literally taken into the wilderness by a big eagle. The serpent-dragon does not literally cast a flood out of his mouth. And the beast out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11: 7 does not himself literally kill the Two Witnesses, and the Two Witnesses is metaphoric also. Hebrews 13: 13-14, in saying let us go to him without the camp, offers us a key to the going into a metaphoric wilderness, where the "camp" is the Church. The flood out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent metaphor points to the flood of lies which he inspires the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 to speak and write. But the remnant of Revelation 12:17, who the dragon-serpent goes to make war with, has the testimony of Jesus Christ at a time when the woman is in the wilderness with her seed the remnant, and the dragon is inspiring the false prophets to speak lies.

Given your extreme metaphoric approach and given this all takes places in the preceding 3 1/2 yr. period, leading up to the second coming of Jesus Christ, will you define what is the "remnant of her seed", per Rev 12:17 KJV?
 

Cross Reference

New member
Revelation 12 shows us a broad sweep of time in the history of redemption. "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation 12: 5

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." Isaiah 66: 7

"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." Revelation 2: 27

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Revelation 19: 15

Who is "he" other than Jesus Christ?

The multi-membered enity called the "Body of Christ". Speaking to the visible church Paul speaks this they, no doubt, understood: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, . . " Galatians 4:19 (KJV)

If we can see that the Woman+Christ Jesus is a married couple then it becomes easy to see that the manchild is their offspring . . including the "remnant" of her seed.. . :).
 

northwye

New member
"Given your extreme metaphoric approach and given this all takes places in the preceding 3 1/2 yr. period, leading up to the second coming of Jesus Christ, will you define what is the "remnant of her seed", per Rev 12:17 KJV? "

I usually try to avoid getting into arguments with individuals. But asking a definition of "what is the "remnant of her seed", per Rev 12:17 KJV?" might be interesting.

The first question is whether you are following the dispensationalist-Christian Zionist doctrine that during the Church Age there is no remnant of Israel?

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

There is no remnant of the Church in scripture, only a remnant of Israel. Pentecost is saying there is now in the Church Age no remnant of national Israel. Does he mean that national Israel as it existed in the Old Covenant does not now exist, or is he saying that there is no remnant of the nation called Israel in the Middle East? It could be that he means both.

Since dispensationalism-Christian Zionism says God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the Church, it follows that for this theology there is no remnant of either in the Church Age, which may be what Pentecost is saying.

Dispensationalism-Christian Zionism does not acknowledge that God remade Old Covenant Israel (Jeremiah 18: 1-6) into that spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5, and there is now an Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). Again, for this theology, there can be no remnant of the Israel of God because an Israel of God does not exist for the theology, only Old Covenant Israel and the Church exist.

So, for the theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S Chafer a remnant of Israel does not exist at the time of the end right before Christ appears. And - before using 42 months or 360 says as being literal, you need to understand how this number is being used in the prophecies of Revelation 11: 2, Revelation 11: 3 and Revelation 12: 6.

The prophecy of Revelation 12: 15-17 can be seen as happening now and has gone on for a time, rather than being only fulfilled during a very last three and a half years. This is like the dispensationalist claim that II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, on the apostasy, translated as falling away, does not occur until a very specific event happens, their one man anti-Christ sits in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, when in fact, this particular apostasy has been going on for some time, and the dispensationalists helped bring the apostasy about.
 

Cross Reference

New member
[B said:
northwye[/B];4763286]"Given your extreme metaphoric approach and given this all takes places in the preceding 3 1/2 yr. period, leading up to the second coming of Jesus Christ, will you define what is the "remnant of her seed", per Rev 12:17 KJV? "

I am into none of what you ask me to confess for letting you know where I stand on matters.

First rule in my mind is to let the scripture say what they and proceed with that as my guide. When it lines with that which makes Spiritual sense, I am a happy camper. If not I don't try change scripture make it say what I need it to say.

I will stop there and submit this to you to that is contrary to your understanding and ask you to clarify what you declared as written in stone, i.e.,
There is no remnant of the Church in scripture, only a remnant of Israel. Pentecost is saying there is now in the Church Age no remnant of national Israel. Does he mean that national Israel as it existed in the Old Covenant does not now exist, or is he saying that there is no remnant of the nation called Israel in the Middle East? It could be that he means both.

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV)

"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Revelation 7:13-14 (KJV)

Washed their robes??? Who but a Christian is clothed in a white robe??
 

northwye

New member
When almost all who belong to the Church are the elect they are of the Israel of God, and then the Church would be almost identical to the Israel of God. The Church is a meeting, assembly, or congregation and to the extent that those in the congregation are the elect, the congregation is the Israel of God. But in the apostasy of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 more and more, as time goes on, who are in the congregation, are not the Israel of God.

Those in Revelation 7: 13-14 who have washed their robes and who came out of great tribulation would be a remnant at a time when the vast majority of those in the congregation are not the Israel of God. Yet only God knows exactly who is the Israel of God. And not all in the congregation - inside the "camp" of Hebrews 13: 13-14 - who are in error stay in error. "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." Daniel 11: 33

Some of those coming out of tribulation whose robes are made white in Christ and are killed were likely caused to be killed for instructing those within the "camp."

I don't think that dispensationalist-Christian Zionists see those coming out of great tribulation in Revelation 7: 13-14 as being a remnant faithful to the teachings of Christ at a time when the Church is off in false doctrines.
 

Cross Reference

New member
When almost all who belong to the Church are the elect they are of the Israel of God, and then the Church would be almost identical to the Israel of God. The Church is a meeting, assembly, or congregation and to the extent that those in the congregation are the elect, the congregation is the Israel of God. But in the apostasy of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 more and more, as time goes on, who are in the congregation, are not the Israel of God.

Those in Revelation 7: 13-14 who have washed their robes and who came out of great tribulation would be a remnant at a time when the vast majority of those in the congregation are not the Israel of God. Yet only God knows exactly who is the Israel of God. And not all in the congregation - inside the "camp" of Hebrews 13: 13-14 - who are in error stay in error. "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." Daniel 11: 33

Some of those coming out of tribulation whose robes are made white in Christ and are killed were likely caused to be killed for instructing those within the "camp."

I don't think that dispensationalist-Christian Zionists see those coming out of great tribulation in Revelation 7: 13-14 as being a remnant faithful to the teachings of Christ at a time when the Church is off in false doctrines.


You aren't letting it say what is says but, thats OK. I have noting more.
 

Epoisses

New member
This is metaphor. The woman here is much like the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26, which is above, is free and is the mother of us all - meaning the mother of all the elect of God. The woman of Revelation 12: 14 or the Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26 are not literally taken into the wilderness by a big eagle. The serpent-dragon does not literally cast a flood out of his mouth. And the beast out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 11: 7 does not himself literally kill the Two Witnesses, and the Two Witnesses is metaphoric also. Hebrews 13: 13-14, in saying let us go to him without the camp, offers us a key to the going into a metaphoric wilderness, where the "camp" is the Church. The flood out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent metaphor points to the flood of lies which he inspires the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 to speak and write. But the remnant of Revelation 12:17, who the dragon-serpent goes to make war with, has the testimony of Jesus Christ at a time when the woman is in the wilderness with her seed the remnant, and the dragon is inspiring the false prophets to speak lies.

I agree and every single aspect could fit into an 8 to 10 year tribulation period not stretched out over 2000 years. Jesus said the gospel will go to the whole world and then the end will come. The gospel didn't go to North America or South America or China or Russia or Australia in the 1st century.
 

Epoisses

New member
Given your extreme metaphoric approach and given this all takes places in the preceding 3 1/2 yr. period, leading up to the second coming of Jesus Christ, will you define what is the "remnant of her seed", per Rev 12:17 KJV?

The remnant of Sarah or the new Jerusalem are those who keep the new commandment of love. Christians establish the law by grace thru faith expressed in love for God and man. All legalists are excluded.
 
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