ECT The Man of Romans 7 is a Believer

[Interplanner]

It is quite simple to show that the man/person of Romans 7 is a Christian.

Rom 7B shows quite a bit of inner conflict. The passage ends, however, on a return to the glory of justification: The person who is in Christ faces no condemnation because of the inner conflict, praise God.

The following items show that the passage is for the believer:
6:3 The audience is those baptized into Christ
6:4 The audience is those raised in Christ
6:23 Even though the audience will die because of sin, the gift of God is already in hand--eternal life in Christ.
7:4 The previous 'marriage' is dead because of a 'death.' We now belong to Another husband.
7:6 The audience serves in the new way of the Spirit which does not demean the law; rather it has to do with a love-compulsion to honor Christ
7:7 What shall "we" say? Paul is counting himself in the mix of people who have the Romans 7B struggle.
7:22 In his inner being he delights in God's law, but sin is right there waging war against him
7:25 We will have this wretched condition until the rescue of Christ. "So then...(the paradox)"
8:1 There is no condemnation (about this inner conflict!) for those who are in Christ, because that is what justification is about:
8:3 What we can't do (a perfect life) God did in his son!
8:10 Although 3-9 sound like everything is actually perfect, 10 comes along and reminds us like ch 7 that 'your body is dead because of sin.' The paradox is still there.


Sorry to all those whining about 'outside sources'. I'm sure you'll find 'outside sources' to complain about. Even here. Sorry.

 

[Danoh]

IP, we're basically agreed on the above, more or less.

Just as within the ranks of those who more or less hold to an A9D perspective (aka Mid-Acts), some will be more or less agreed on your above, while others will not be.

It is what it is; people will at times see some things differently.

GloryDays, for example, appears to not hold yours and my view that Romans 7 is about the Believer.

At the same time, she appears to hold your view about the sense of 8:1's "no condemnation."

 

[musterion]

It is quite simple to show that the man/person of Romans 7 is a Christian.

I may not use the exact same reasoning to get there but I agree with the premise as well.

The "So..." of Rom 7:25 is another major key to understanding this whole passage. His flesh will never be free from the law of sin and death, but his mind and spirit are (Rom 8:2). That can be said about no unsaved person.

 

[Interplanner]

I may not use the exact same reasoning to get there but I agree with the premise as well.

The "So..." of Rom 7:25 is another major key to understanding this whole passage. His flesh will never be free from the law of sin and death, but his mind and spirit are (Rom 8:2). That can be said about no unsaved person.

Right, and the unbeliever will not have this particular conflict. He'll have those of circumstances or conscience.

 

[musterion]

Yes, and possibly conviction, by God's grace. But the constant warfare between old man and new man? Nope.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes, and possibly conviction, by God's grace. But the constant warfare between old man and new man? Nope.

Thanks, yes, we have that to agree on.

The unbeliever is quite happy in sin. It seems that God's strategy with them is to 'predicate' the Gospel on the Law so that people hear how seriously God takes the law in the Gospel, and creates some proper sorrow in the unbeliever.

 

[patrick jane]

Thanks, yes, we have that to agree on.

The unbeliever is quite happy in sin. It seems that God's strategy with them is to 'predicate' the Gospel on the Law so that people hear how seriously God takes the law in the Gospel, and creates some proper sorrow in the unbeliever.

:rotfl:

 

[Interplanner]

:rotfl:

And your specific problem with that is?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, and possibly conviction, by God's grace. But the constant warfare between old man and new man? Nope.

True, but it goes on until submission to Christ, and can re-emerge on any new matter, or level of growth.

However the victory is seen in being filled with the Spirit, which is not something permanent, unless fully sanctified.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

7:25 We will have this wretched condition until the rescue of Christ. "So then...(the paradox)"

Only until submission to His will.

LA

 

[glorydaz]

IP, we're basically agreed on the above, more or less.

Just as within the ranks of those who more or less hold to an A9D perspective (aka Mid-Acts), some will be more or less agreed on your above, while others will not be.

It is what it is; people will at times see some things differently.

GloryDays, for example, appears to not hold yours and my view that Romans 7 is about the Believer.

At the same time, she appears to hold your view about the sense of 8:1's "no condemnation."

Yep, you're right. I believe Paul is talking about the man under the law...without the power of the Holy Spirit in Him.


Paul is not a wretched man...sold under sin.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.​

Paul would be contradicting himself when he tells us "it is no longer I, but Christ who lives in me" and "I can do all things...."

 

[glorydaz]

I may not use the exact same reasoning to get there but I agree with the premise as well.

The "So..." of Rom 7:25 is another major key to understanding this whole passage. His flesh will never be free from the law of sin and death, but his mind and spirit are (Rom 8:2). That can be said about no unsaved person.

So, you think Paul is thanking God that he serves the law of sin with his flesh?

I don't. I believe he is thanking God that he no longer serves sin period. He then summarizes the chapter (what he has been teaching about the law and sin working together) with the last part of that verse. The carnal man may want to obey the law of God, but is unable (until he is indwelt by the Spirit).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So, you think Paul is thanking God that he serves the law of sin with his flesh?

I don't. I believe he is thanking God that he no longer serves sin period. He then summarizes the chapter (what he has been teaching about the law and sin working together) with the last part of that verse. The carnal man may want to obey the law of God, but is unable (until he is indwelt by the Spirit).

Christians go through experiences of struggling with their own flesh.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Every Christian experiences this from time to time,until deliverance comes, upon submitting to the Lord from the heart.

LA

 

[musterion]

So, you think Paul is thanking God that he serves the law of sin with his flesh?

No, because he didn't say that. He did not thank God that with the flesh he is bound, as if by law, to serve the sin which indwells it. That's what flesh does. That's ALL it does. He simply stated it as a fact because it is a fact for now.

Notice two very important things...

1. Paul starts this section telling us not to be ignorant of our death to law and condemnation. Why would he begin with that? Why would we need told this if there's not a problem here?

2. Because Paul clearly distinguishes the flesh that sins as now completely separate from his NEW life and identity in Christ...which is a distinction many people today do not make. This, I believe, is the key to your question.

He...the new man...is still trapped with the body of sin for now, but God says it is no longer him and he is no longer it. In God's view they are as separate from one another as sin is from Christ. Why? Because He is the believer's life.

We are counted as having died to flesh and sin and Paul says that's right where our freedom in our walk lies. That's what this section is about.

So the new man--the true Paul, the only one God acknowledges--is not under condemnation because of the flesh that can do nothing BUT sin (Rom 7:18). THE NEW MAN CANNOT SIN.

Old man, New man. One already condemned, the other already counted as died and so beyond all condemnation (Rom 8:1). Gotta see the difference.

I find it helps to read Rom 5-8, as much as possible, as a complete unit with no chapter stops. I white them out.

I believe he is thanking God that he no longer serves sin period.

Yes, the NEW man does not. But the OLD man, who we are to be constantly putting off, can and does. That's Paul's point, here and elsewhere.

 

[andyc]

It is quite simple to show that the man/person of Romans 7 is a Christian.

Rom 7B shows quite a bit of inner conflict. The passage ends, however, on a return to the glory of justification: The person who is in Christ faces no condemnation because of the inner conflict, praise God.

The following items show that the passage is for the believer:
6:3 The audience is those baptized into Christ
6:4 The audience is those raised in Christ
6:23 Even though the audience will die because of sin, the gift of God is already in hand--eternal life in Christ.
7:4 The previous 'marriage' is dead because of a 'death.' We now belong to Another husband.
7:6 The audience serves in the new way of the Spirit which does not demean the law; rather it has to do with a love-compulsion to honor Christ
7:7 What shall "we" say? Paul is counting himself in the mix of people who have the Romans 7B struggle.
7:22 In his inner being he delights in God's law, but sin is right there waging war against him
7:25 We will have this wretched condition until the rescue of Christ. "So then...(the paradox)"
8:1 There is no condemnation (about this inner conflict!) for those who are in Christ, because that is what justification is about:
8:3 What we can't do (a perfect life) God did in his son!
8:10 Although 3-9 sound like everything is actually perfect, 10 comes along and reminds us like ch 7 that 'your body is dead because of sin.' The paradox is still there.


Sorry to all those whining about 'outside sources'. I'm sure you'll find 'outside sources' to complain about. Even here. Sorry.

In Romans 7 Paul is describing the curse of the law upon the natural man, Basically, it's revealing the sin nature within that torments the conscience of person desiring to be holy. If anyone, whether saved or not, tries to relate to God through works, their life will be miserable.
Once people realize that righteousness is by faith, and that we must walk in the Spirit to overcome the desires of the flesh, there is total victory.

The mads do not understand the "walking in the Spirit" part. They attempt to remove condemnation by simply telling themselves that God doesn't recognize sin anymore, and so they are free to do as they please. This form of grace they've manufactured has nothing to do with overcoming the lust of the flesh by walking in the Spirit, they simply pacify the flesh by removing the moral restraints placed upon it through the law. Its gnosticism in other words.

 

[musterion]

Also, because there is no chapter breaks or punctuation in the Greek, it looks like Paul's actual thought here flows more like this...

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then [because of all he just said in ch. 7] with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore [because of his identity in Christ] now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul, the new man, is free. His flesh, in which he was imprisoned, was not.

 

[jamie]

It is quite simple to show that the man/person of Romans 7 is a Christian.

Are all Christians carnal?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

 

[Danoh]

Romans 7 is the issue of what awaits the Believer who attempts to live unto God in his own strength; the very strength the Law had been meant to not only prove is not possible in one's own strength in that one is weak through the flesh, but given what the Law had been meant to prove is set off instead - what attempting to serve God in one's own strength sets off instead....

It sets off the sin in the flesh - so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (cannot serve God).

 

[serpentdove]

The apostle Paul was saved when he wrote Ro 7. lain:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [Rom. 7:24].

"This is not an unsaved man who is crying, “O wretched man that I am”; this is a saved man. The word wretched carries with it the note of exhaustion because of the struggle. “Who is going to deliver me?” He is helpless. His shoulders are pinned to the floor—he has been wrestled down. Like old Jacob, he has been crippled. He is calling for help from the outside." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (Romans 1-8) (electronic ed., Vol. 42, pp. 133–134). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

See:

Ro 7, 8 The Outline Bible

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Romans 7 is the issue of what awaits the Believer who attempts to live unto God in his own strength; the very strength the Law had been meant to not only prove is not possible in one's own strength in that one is weak through the flesh, but given what the Law had been meant to prove is set off instead - what attempting to serve God in one's own strength sets off instead....

It sets off the sin in the flesh - so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (cannot serve God).

It goes beyond the believer. Most know the there is a moral code of love in the universe, and most want to be good people. But like Paul said without Christ no one has "...the ability to carry it out.", in and among themselves; "in my flesh" (Romans 7:18).

The struggle of Chapter 7 is defeated by faith and the presence and power and love of Christ in Chapter 8 for a surrendered believer who sets their mind on Him.