The Gospel As Per The Bronze Serpent

WeberHome

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John 3:14-16 . . Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

The incident to which Christ referred is located at Num 21:5-9.

Long story short: Yhvh's people became sick and tired of living in the desert and eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine benefactor for tastier food and better accommodations, they became hostile and confrontational.

In response to their insolence; Yhvh sent a swarm of deadly poisonous reptiles among them; which began striking people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions. In no time at all, much people of Israel died. Then those not yet dead got nervous and appealed to Moses for help. In reply; the Lord instructed Moses to construct a model of the beasts and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look to it for immunity.

Now the key issue here is that the model was the only God-given remedy for the people's terminal condition-- not purity, not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church attendance, not missionary work, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not charity, not good deeds, not good behavior, not piety, not Bible study and Sunday school, not catechism or yeshiva, not one's religion of choice, not self denial and/or self control, not the so-called golden rule, not vows of poverty and/or chastity, not the Ten Commandments, not the Eucharist; no, none of that: not even prayers. The model was it; viz: it was all or nothing at all-- there was no other option. Whoever failed to look to that model for immunity died: no exceptions.

In other words then: Christ's sacrifice of himself to satisfy justice for the sins of the world is the only God-given option for protection from the second death depicted at Rev 20:11-15. The default is terminal; no exceptions. People relying upon self denial and/or self control instead of putting all their trust in Christ's crucifixion, are dead men walking.

John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him will not be condemned; but whoever does not believe has already been condemned.

Supposing someone is interested in taking Christ at his word? What to do about it?

Well; all that they have to do is simply speak up; like this:

"God; I am a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's death."

That prayer need not be public. It can be spoken in the privacy of one's own bedroom or even in a restroom where they work.

There's only one catch to that prayer. The speaker has to be convinced in their own mind that Jesus' Father is really out there or they will be speaking into the air and get no results.

Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

How is it that I am so confident that God will honor the prayer I recommended? Well; again, I'm taking Christ at his word and acting on faith.

John 3:17 . . For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

John 6:37 . . Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

. . . And this is the will of the one who sent me: that I should not lose anything of what He gave me, but that I should raise it the last day. For this is the will of my Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him the last day.

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turbosixx

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Now the key issue here is that the model was the only God-given remedy for the people's terminal condition-- not purity, not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church attendance, not missionary work, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not charity, not good deeds, not good behavior, not piety, not Bible study and Sunday school, not catechism or yeshiva, not one's religion of choice, not self denial and/or self control, not the so-called golden rule, not vows of poverty and/or chastity, not the Ten Commandments, not the Eucharist; no, none of that: not even prayers. The model was it; viz: it was all or nothing at all-- there was no other option.

Whoever failed to look to that model for immunity died: no exceptions.

That's right, they had to do something. They had to get within sight of it to be saved. Believing it was there wasn’t good enough.


John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him will not be condemned; but whoever does not believe has already been condemned.

Supposing someone is interested in taking Christ at his word? What to do about it?

Is this really taking Christ at his word? I would suggest it’s short sighted. Jesus said this before his death, burial and resurrection. Take a look at what he said AFTER his D,B &R.
Mk. 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

After his sacrifice that saves us he adds baptism to believe. Baptism is how we take part in his D,B&R. Rom. 6:3-7 and how we call upon his name Acts 22:16.

Well; all that they have to do is simply speak up; like this:

"God; I am a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's death."

Can you show me where you find this from an inspired writer? Or an example of it?


I would suggest to you that is exactly what baptism is as told from an inspired writer.
1 Pt. 3:21....not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience
 

Robert Pate

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That's right, they had to do something. They had to get within sight of it to be saved. Believing it was there wasn’t good enough.




Is this really taking Christ at his word? I would suggest it’s short sighted. Jesus said this before his death, burial and resurrection. Take a look at what he said AFTER his D,B &R.
Mk. 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

After his sacrifice that saves us he adds baptism to believe. Baptism is how we take part in his D,B&R. Rom. 6:3-7 and how we call upon his name Acts 22:16.



Can you show me where you find this from an inspired writer? Or an example of it?


I would suggest to you that is exactly what baptism is as told from an inspired writer.
1 Pt. 3:21....not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience

The work of salvation has already been done, Colossians 2:10. We are complete "In Christ".

The only thing that baptism is going to do for you is get you wet.
 

turbosixx

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The work of salvation has already been done, Colossians 2:10. We are complete "In Christ".

I agree, complete IN Christ. These people were in Christ.
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae:

What I want to know for sure is how we are added to Christ.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

The only thing that baptism is going to do for you is get you wet.
Then why did Jesus add it to believe?
Mk. 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
 

WeberHome

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The water baptism ritual was useful in Christianity's beginning when people were transitioning from the Old Testament to the New; but it wasn't long before water baptism disappeared from the message.

1Cor 1:17 . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

These days, water baptism is a red herring. It foments futile quarrels and bull sessions that never get to the bottom of anything.

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turbosixx

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The water baptism ritual was useful in Christianity's beginning when people were transitioning from the Old Testament to the New; but it wasn't long before water baptism disappeared from the message.

1Cor 1:17 . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

These days, water baptism is a red herring. It foments futile quarrels and bull sessions that never get to the bottom of anything.

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That verse is used out of context to support a falsehood.
 

Robert Pate

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Why did practice baptism IF he wasn't sent to baptize?

That verse is taken out of context and is used to support a falsehood just like the rcc does with Matt. 16:18.

Baptism is a public profession of your faith in Christ. This is why it is always done publicly.

It represents the death and the resurrection of Christ. Going under the water represents the death of Christ. Coming up out of the water represents his resurrection. In our public profession of baptism we identify ourselves with Christ.

Jesus was baptized for us as our representative, so that we don't have to be.
 

turbosixx

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It represents the death and the resurrection of Christ. Going under the water represents the death of Christ. Coming up out of the water represents his resurrection. In our public profession of baptism we identify ourselves with Christ.

I like the way Paul put's it in Romans 6.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,


Jesus was baptized for us as our representative, so that we don't have to be.

Could you please explain what you make of his instructions.

Matt. 28:19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Mk. 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
 

WeberHome

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Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Watch as I revise a bit of the Lord's statement in order to draw attention to something.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who believes and is not baptized will be condemned.

Q: Are there any benefits available to non baptized believers?

A: Yes indeed, and they're pretty good too.

Eph 1:12-14 . .You also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-- to the praise of his glory

The sealing process spoken of in that passage is irrespective of water baptism. It takes place the very moment that someone hears the gospel and believes it. (e.g. Acts 10:44-48)

The koiné Greek word for the deposit spoken of in that passage is arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn') which identifies a pledge that is forfeited in the event that buyers renege on their professed intent to purchase property. In some locales this is called good faith money, and it's usually included with all the papers submitted to escrow.

Bottom line: If for some reason God should renege on His promise to save people who believe the gospel, they would keep the Holy Spirit as compensation for God's failure to make good on His professed intent.

Another benefit is eternal life. Note the grammatical tense of the "has" verb in the statements below. It's present tense rather than future, indicating that believers possess eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period. This again is irrespective of water baptism.

John 5:24a . . I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life

John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Seeing as how eternal life is a quality of life that's impervious to death, decay, and the aging process, then people who have it are immune to termination in the lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

John 5:24b . .They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

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jamie

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For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

And the Father did not send Christ to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

The two are not exclusionary, both can be done even by the same person.
 

turbosixx

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Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Watch as I revise a bit of the Lord's statement in order to draw attention to something.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who believes and is not baptized will be condemned.

Q: Are there any benefits available to non baptized believers?



The problem with your logic is that you're assuming the ones Paul is talking about in Ephesians believed and were not baptized. They were baptized.

I would suggest this is a better way to understand our fate based on Mk. 16:16

Hear the Gospel? --- No - ??
Yes
Believe? --- No - Condemned
Yes
Baptized? --- No - ??
Yes
Saved
The one who believes but isn't baptized is in the same boat as those who haven't heard.

The parallel passage to Mark 16 is in Matthew 28. There Jesus tells the apostles HOW to make Christians.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

When you take the two together we see that when we believe the gospel we are baptized which makes us Christians adding us to the body where we are saved. It's simple but Satan has been confusing it just like he did in the garden.
 

turbosixx

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The water baptism ritual was useful in Christianity's beginning when people were transitioning from the Old Testament to the New; but it wasn't long before water baptism disappeared from the message.

1Cor 1:17 . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

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Can you explain what Paul meant by keeping that single verse in context?
 

WeberHome

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Can you explain what Paul meant by keeping that single verse in context?

Paul did not place a lot of emphasis on water baptism; neither should we; and seeing as how Cornelius was sealed with God's Spirit prior to water baptism (Acts 10:44-48), then I think it's safe to assume that all believers undergo the very same procedure.

The possession of God's Spirit is paramount; and way, way more important than baptism because according to Eph 1:12-14, the Spirit locks in one's rescue from the wrath of God; which leads me to my next comment relative to the bronze serpent.

An "expert witness" can be defined as a witness, who by virtue of education, training, skill, or experience, is believed to have knowledge in a particular subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon the witness's specialized (scientific, technical or other) opinion about an evidence or fact issue within the scope of their expertise, referred to as the expert opinion, as an assistance to the fact-finder.

According to God's testimony-- as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to Christianity --people lacking eternal life are lacking it because they lack God's son; in other words: they are quite christless. His testimony applies to everyone: to Christians and non Christians alike.

1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.

How many christless Christians am I talking about? Well, for starters: as of 2014 there were approximately 1.226 billion Roman Catholics worldwide who were taught that nobody, not even the Pope, obtains eternal life until they pass on. Well, if 1John 5:11-12 is true-- viz: if God knows what He's talking about --then all 1.226 billion of those Catholics in 2014 were christless. That was a very serious situation because christless Christians are in grave danger of termination in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15..

Rom 8:9 . . Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.

This means that every time a Catholic in 2014 said: "the Lord is my shepherd" they were saying something about themselves that wasn't true.

I didn't post that to shame Catholics nor single them out; but only to emphasize that it is far and away more important to obtain the sealing spoken of in Eph 1:12-14 than it is to get baptized.

How does an interested party obtain the sealing and thus obtain eternal life? See post #1 for a discourse on Moses' bronze serpent and how it relates to Christ.

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Lilstu

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IMO The Hebrew Scriptures Do NOT Allow for a Man to Die For Another

IMO The Hebrew Scriptures Do NOT Allow for a Man to Die For Another

Many believe that a man died for their sins.

The popular religious belief is that all men are sinners.
The wages of sin is death.
So all men are condemned to die for their sins.
But many believed that by dying in place of all men,
a man redeemed all men from the condemnation of sin.
a man ransomed all men from death, who accept the gift of grace from God.

IMO, according to the Scriptures in the OT, it is impossible for a man to die for another man’s sins. It is impossible for a man to redeem or ransom another man from God’s condemnation of death.

Allow me to show you from the Scriptures.

Psalm 49:6-9
6They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
8(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
9That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

No man can redeem the soul of another. Not with riches nor with anything else.

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Everyman shall be put to death for his own sin. A man cannot be put to death for your sin.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Do not slay the innocent [an innocent man] because God will not justify the wicked. [sinners]

Leviticus 27:29
No one doomed to death under the claim of divine justice, who is to be completely destroyed from among men, shall be ransomed from suffering the death penalty; he shall surely be put to death.

No man condemned to death by God for his sins, can be ransomed or redeemed. He must be put to death.

Scripture cannot be broken. According to the OT, No man could not die for your sins.
 

WeberHome

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Jesus said we must be born of water and Spirit to enter God's family.

It is commonly assumed that the water Christ spoke of in John 3:3-8 refers to the ritual of Christian baptism. There is no excuse for that error seeing as how the Lord explained the nature of the water to a woman of Samaria in the very next chapter.

It turns out the water isn't for bathing, rather, it is specifically for drinking.

John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

The living water that Jesus spoke of isn't literal H2O, rather, it's a supernatural water that gives people eternal life.

John 4:11-14 . ."Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?" Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Bottom line: Eternal life is an essential prerequisite to passage into the kingdom of God; no exceptions; not even for infants and/or Old Testament personages because the Lord said "no one" can enter the kingdom without it.

John 3:5 . . Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

How would an interested party go about obtaining the living water about which the Lord spoke? Well; that's actually pretty easy. You get it as Jesus instructed the woman: request it; and then go back and review post #1.
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