The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?

Arial

Active member
The book of Revelation seems, at least at first perusal, almost unrelated and disconnected from the rest of the NT as to its purpose and spiritual benefit. In the four schools of thought related to its interpretation the futurist view is the most prevalent today, therefore the one most of us hear almost exclusively. Having heard, we tend to approach Revelation with that view already in mind. What we find then from the very beginning is a puzzle we must solve, and therefore not a revelation at all but a concealing, and there is where we focus. Fitting all the pieces of the puzzle together so we can see what the book is telling us. What we encounter is symbols, images, analogies, numbers, apparent timelines, all crammed into our starting point of one timeline. Seven years in which Christ's church is not even there if we add to this the rapture of the Church before the seven years, called the Tribulation, leading to the second coming of Christ. We see, consciously or unconsciously, the title to mean revelation of what will occur at some future time, and some of that does exist in Revelation, but primarily it is revealing what is going on in the spiritual realm and the effect it has on the Church. What we ought to be doing is interpreting it by letting the Bible itself interpret what is not clear, by what is. Revelation is not isolated from the rest of scripture, but is a specific type of writing, and this specific type of literature is found all over the OT in particular, in the use of images, visions, symbols and even numbers as symbolic. The symbolic use of numbers is all through the Bible, and the meaning of a number is found within the Bible by how it is always used by God. They represent something. I will examine these meanings in detail as we look into the structure of Revelation. The images etc. we see in Revelation we also see in the prophets of the OT. They are alien to us, but they were not to the people of John's day.

The best way to get to the meat and meaning, and message of Revelation is to approach it with two truths in mind. The central message can be summarized in one sentence: God governs and rules history and will bring it's consummation in Christ. And it is a picture book, not a puzzle book. We will never understand fully all the details and we do not need to. The picture book concept can be summarized by the experience of one pastor who was reading aloud the book to children. He simply read it as it is written and the children listened. No interpretation given. No teaching. A twelve year old boy came up after and said, "I understand it now." When asked what he understood he answered, "We win!" Another said he read it like it was a fantasy but he knew it was real.

Revelation repeats in symbolic form the message that is the rest of the NT. It is meant to strengthen our hearts.

What is the purpose of Revelation and what was the occasion in which it was written? It is addressed to seven churches in Asia (1:4,11). Persecution had fallen on some Christians (2:1-3:22). More persecution was coming (2:10; 13:7-10). Roman officials would try and force Christians to worship the emperor, False teaching and complacency would cause Christians to compromise with the pagan society in which they lived (2:2, 4, 14-14, 20-24; 3:1-2, 15,17). It is an assurance that Christ is aware of their situation, and calls them to stand firm against all temptation, that their victory is secured through the blood of the Lamb (5:9-10; 12:11). He will come soon to defeat Satan and his agents (19:11-20:10). And we can see clearly that all these things written to the seven churches is also applicable to this very day, and has been throughout all of the time between the resurrection and "now" and will continue to be so until Christ's second coming.

To keep this from getting too long, my next post in this thread will deal with the structure of Revelation, but I look forward to all comments as we go along.
 

Arial

Active member
The Structure of Revelation

Revelation shares some of the characteristics we see in the apocalyptic literature that we see in Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah. It contains visions with many symbolic elements. It is a beautiful weaving together an intricate combination a sequence of events, and themes of the rest of scripture, using visual images and and verbal promises and warnings.

The most important event that history is working towards is the second coming of Christ. In Revelation we find visions of His second coming seven times. There are seven cycles of judgement, each leading to His second coming. The eighth and final vision shows the New Jerusalem, which is the consummate state on the other side of the second coming. So the cycles of judgment parallel each other. They all cover the same time period leading to His second coming, each from a distinct vantage point.

Revelation is organised in sevens. Seven churches, seven spirits, seven golden lampstands, seven stars, seven torches of fire, seven seals, seven horns of the Lamb, seven eyes of the Lamb, seven angels with trumpets, seven trumpets, seven thunders, seven plagues, seven golden bowls. Seven cycles of judgment.
Seven in the Bible represents completeness or wholeness. It is 3 (the number of God---Father, Son, Holy Spirit) plus 4 (four winds, four corners of the earth) which represents all of creation. So the number seven becomes significant in its use. It is representing something, not simply as a number itself. There are other numbers used the same way in Revelation that will change what is taken literally, such as 144,00, and a thousand years, and bring forth other possibilities rather than a literal interpretation. That will become apparent down the road.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
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In Revelation we find visions of His second coming seven times. There are seven cycles of judgement, each leading to His second coming.
Thanks for this thread to explore the possibilities.

Give us a list of the 7 cycles of judgement so we can discuss.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Mystery or Profitable? It's probably both.
One thing we do know, it's got an incredible wealth of information concerning the future.

I'm not sure if any of it has much to say about the church. We've learned more about our destiny from Paul than from what John writes in Revelation. It's good for witnessing to the lost about what lies ahead for them if they don't get saved soon.
 

Arial

Active member
Mystery or Profitable? It's probably both.
One thing we do know, it's got an incredible wealth of information concerning the future.

I'm not sure if any of it has much to say about the church. We've learned more about our destiny from Paul than from what John writes in Revelation. It's good for witnessing to the lost about what lies ahead for them if they don't get saved soon.
Revelation is written specifically to the seven churches, many, if not all, I would have to take a peek at the map of Paul's travels again, were, well, churches that Paul visited and taught in. Not exclusively Gentile of Jewish. The fact that it is written to seven churches, though there were many more at the time, and all the sevens repeat within the vision, intimates the wider relevance of the message to all churches of all time. Not only that, but we can look around us today, and see that it can be directly applied to various churches or congregations.

The entire book has an incredible wealth of information concerning "this age". The Bible speaks of only two ages. This age and the age to come. Then there is the last day or the day of the Lord. After that, the age to come. There is no 1000 year third age. The Bible makes no room for it. Acts 2:15-18; Heb 1:1,2; 1 Pet 3:10;1 Cor 15:20-24; 1 Thes 4:13-18. Revelation gives us a look at an unknown time in the future that results in the day of the Lord, His second coming. It is for the church---all of it---believing Israel is a part of His body, His church. It is for our hope, our assurance, to keep us encouraged and steadfast, enduring to the end.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The Book of Revelation was written to Jewish believers. That is Kingdom believers of the previous dispensation, as apposed to those who are in the Body of Christ.

Note the Jewish, Kingdom, priesthood, law orientation throughout...

Revelation 1:5 ...To Him who ..... 6 ....has made us kings and priests to His God and Father,​
Revelation 2; 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.​
Revelation 2 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.​
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.​
Revelation 2:23b And I will give to each one of you according to your works.​


I'm out of time for now but it goes on like this throughout the letters to the seven churches and beyond. John was writing to his fellow members of the Circumcision (i.e. the Kingdom of Israel), just has Paul and the Twelve had agreed. (Galatians 2:9)

Clete
 

Arial

Active member
Why not consider a literal interpretation?
I already have. Was there for many years, leaving a thorough examination of Revelation by the wayside. It was, from that point of view and for me, too difficult to explain what didn't make sense and even seemed to be contradictory. Now I am taking a look at it from a different interpretive angle, and presenting it.
 

Arial

Active member
The real question. To prepare the way for the first coming.
First written by John the Baptist.
I would say more to prepare the saints for the Coming of the Lord, by strengthening them with hope and endurance in times of persecution and trials. He lets us know that He is in control of all of it and is His purposes are being worked out in Christ, heading towards His Second Coming, in this age which is whatever age a person is in.
 

Arial

Active member
It is only a puzzle if we make it one. The message is loud and clear as is its purpose (to encourage and strengthen the saints in times of trial, helping them endure to the end). It is a bit of a puzzle to us today because we are not familiar with apocalyptic writing (hidden things that we cannot see revealed to us) using symbolism and visions. The people in the first century church were, but we have all that information in the Bible itself and are able to find it. A great deal of it is in the same type of apocalyptic writing in the OT. Especially in Daniel, Ez., and Zech. We may need to search it out and we may need helps from those who already have done this, (and then of course check everything in the Bible for ourselves that we hear or read from these helps). But that is what we are supposed to do. The book of Revelation is about God---not us, but for us---and the ultimate victory of Christ and what awaits us after this victory at His Second Coming.
 

Arial

Active member
The Book of Revelation was written to Jewish believers. That is Kingdom believers of the previous dispensation, as apposed to those who are in the Body of Christ.
Rev1:4 John, to the seven churches in Asia.

Look into those seven churches in Asia that John is writing this letter to (this can be found within scripture) and then tell me it is written strictly to Jewish believers. John is a Jew. He is naturally going to use language and references that he is accustomed to----but he is applying it to all believers, and it is relevant to all believers of all time. I am not a dispensationalist and I do not consider you speaking of it as though it were written in stone as correct to have merit. Personally, I do not see it as valid given how the Bible shows God as moving the plan of redemption always forward and never three steps forward and two back, and then all the way back to start over with a different plan of redemption for one group of people. Who btw, He has already joined as one.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Rev1:4 John, to the seven churches in Asia.

Look into those seven churches in Asia that John is writing this letter to (this can be found within scripture) and then tell me it is written strictly to Jewish believers.
Umm, yeah, I just did that.

John is a Jew.
No kidding. So was Paul.

He is naturally going to use language and references that he is accustomed to----but he is applying it to all believers, and it is relevant to all believers of all time.
Saying it doesn't make it so. We are told explicitly that Peter, James and JOHN would minister to the circumcision (i.e. Israel) and that Paul would minister to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

I am not a dispensationalist and I do not consider you speaking of it as though it were written in stone as correct to have merit.
Nor would I expect you to, which is why I didn't simply "speak of it as though it were written is stone". On the contrary, I citing the word of God, which you ignored completely.

Personally, I do not see it as valid given how the Bible shows God as moving the plan of redemption always forward and never three steps forward and two back, and then all the way back to start over with a different plan of redemption for one group of people.
I do not care about what you "do not see" (i.e. your personal opinions).

No one has suggested that God has ever taken three steps forward and two steps back. The dispensation of grace was not an after thought or a plan B and there isn't a single solitary dispensationalists that believes or teaches otherwise.

Who btw, He has already joined as one.
Right! Now, in the current dispensation, there is no Jew or Gentile. There was however for a while in the first century two groups of believers. Those who had believed in Christ before Israel had been cut off and those who believed Paul's gospel of grace.

You will find no such teaching ANYWHERE in the bible outside of Paul's writings. Every other biblical author wrote to the Circumcision (i.e. Israel) and how salvation comes by faith in God, good works and obedience to the law of Moses, all of which, circumcision symbolizes). Only Paul tells us not to submit to the law. John's writings are no exception. All you have to do is read it. Once you notice it, you see it throughout Revelation, as I have demonstrated already.

When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, God will turn again to Israel and it will flip so that John's writings are directly applicable and Paul's will stand as testimony of God's goodness and grace but will no longer apply directly to believers during that period of time just as Moses' writing don't apply to us directly today.

Clete
 

Arial

Active member
The Seven Cycles of Judgment:

Seven seals (6:1-8:1)
Seven trumpets ((8:2-11:19)
Symbolic figures and the harvest (12:1-14:20)
Seven bowls (15:1-16:21)
Judgment of Babylon (17:1-19:10)
White horse judgment (19:11-21)
White throne judgment (20:1-21:8)

My understanding of the seven seals.
The first four are analogous to Zech 1:8 I saw in the night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in the glen, and behind him were red, sorrel, and white horses. And Zech 6:1-3 Again I lifted up my eyes and sawm behold, four chariots came out from between two mountains of bronze. The first had red horses, the second black horses, the third white horses, and the fourth chariot dappled horses---all of them strong. (ESV) I will not quote the entire exchange that continues through verse 8, but these present to us also the for winds of heaven (all of creation), they patrol the earth. The same in Zech 6. We see the same things playing out in the heavenlies then as we see in Revelation. It is an ongoing occurrence in a spiritual battle. Angelic assistants (living creatures) may be involved in world history without us knowing about it, and God is always sovereign over His creation, providence (which is not the Christian word of luck, but all actions of God) is the way in which He executes His ruling. The white horse represent victory, or conquest.

The red horse represents slaughter which entails all human bloodshed (red).

The black horse: famine

The pale horse: death or terror and encompasses aspects of the other three and echo Ez 14:21. The calamities grow in intensity leading up to the final judgment and the Second Coming. At this point a limit has been set---affecting only a fourth of the earth.
 

Arial

Active member
Umm, yeah, I just did that.


No kidding. So was Paul.


Saying it doesn't make it so. We are told explicitly that Peter, James and JOHN would minister to the circumcision (i.e. Israel) and that Paul would minister to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​


Nor would I expect you to, which is why I didn't simply "speak of it as though it were written is stone". On the contrary, I citing the word of God, which you ignored completely.


I do not care about what you "do not see" (i.e. your personal opinions).

No one has suggested that God has ever taken three steps forward and two steps back. The dispensation of grace was not an after thought or a plan B and there isn't a single solitary dispensationalists that believes or teaches otherwise.


Right! Now, in the current dispensation, there is no Jew or Gentile. There was however for a while in the first century two groups of believers. Those who had believed in Christ before Israel had been cut off and those who believed Paul's gospel of grace.

You will find no such teaching ANYWHERE in the bible outside of Paul's writings. Every other biblical author wrote to the Circumcision (i.e. Israel) and how salvation comes by faith in God, good works and obedience to the law of Moses, all of which, circumcision symbolizes). Only Paul tells us not to submit to the law. John's writings are no exception. All you have to do is read it. Once you notice it, you see it throughout Revelation, as I have demonstrated already.

When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, God will turn again to Israel and it will flip so that John's writings are directly applicable and Paul's will stand as testimony of God's goodness and grace but will no longer apply directly to believers during that period of time just as Moses' writing don't apply to us directly today.

Clete
Clete,
This is not a thread for you to vent or a thread on dispensationalism, or meant for you to sidetrack it into being about what you want to say, rather than what the thread is actually about. You can start your own thread for that, and you should. But do not attempt to derail the purpose and intent of this thread, with your same old tiresome and destructive song and dance. Please. And thank you.
 

Arial

Active member
On the contrary, I citing the word of God, which you ignored completely.
If I respond to all that you say it will do exactly as you intend it to do----derail the thread into what you want the topic to be. Dispensationalism in relation to Revelation, may come up in the thread but only in a way so as to present another possible view. Your posts tend to always devolve into simply calling people stupid if they won't agree with you. And when you give scripture to "prove" your beliefs you do not seem to realize that I, or others who do not adhere to dispensationalism, do not start with your premise and therefore do not see what you do in them, and never did (in my case). No amount of browbeating and name calling will change that.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I already have. Was there for many years, leaving a thorough examination of Revelation by the wayside. It was, from that point of view and for me, too difficult to explain what didn't make sense and even seemed to be contradictory. Now I am taking a look at it from a different interpretive angle, and presenting it.
You should look at the dispensational angle. Many of your questions would be answered.
 
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