ECT The Atoning Blood

[Tambora]

Did the blood of the atonement forgive sins?
How does scripture describe forgiveness of sin by the blood?
Does "forgive" mean that you pardon the sinner for his transgression (ie. no penalty for you to suffer), but still must make someone else suffer the penalty for your transgression?????
If so, who are we supposed to make suffer the penalty each time we forgive someone for their transgression?
I mean, if I forgive your debt to me, but make someone else pay the debt you owed me, have I really forgiven the debt?
:think:

 

[glorydaz]

Did the blood of the atonement forgive sins?
How does scripture describe forgiveness of sin by the blood?
Does "forgive" mean that you pardon the sinner for his transgression (ie. no penalty for you to suffer), but still must make someone else suffer the penalty for your transgression?????
If so, who are we supposed to make suffer the penalty each time we forgive someone for their transgression?
I mean, if I forgive your debt to me, but make someone else pay the debt you owed me, have I really forgiven the debt?
:think:

My goodness. You'll have to define some terms there, Tam.

Sin, debt, transgression. BTW...don't you owe me 20 bucks?

 

[Danoh]

Did the blood of the atonement forgive sins?
How does scripture describe forgiveness of sin by the blood?
Does "forgive" mean that you pardon the sinner for his transgression (ie. no penalty for you to suffer), but still must make someone else suffer the penalty for your transgression?????
If so, who are we supposed to make suffer the penalty each time we forgive someone for their transgression?
I mean, if I forgive your debt to me, but make someone else pay the debt you owed me, have I really forgiven the debt?
:think:

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

In other words, just as He forgave me for Christ's sake - while I was yet a sinner - that is - unconditionally - I am instructed to do likewise - unconditionally - for His sake.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

But it also doesn't mean I have to have a problem with it either, at least not this side of the empowering Cross of Christ - not anymore.

"For he that is dead is free from sin" from the flesh's need for the need for payback that is "just giving them a taste of their own medicine."

An example would be those Believers at Selma (was it?) who forgave that individual who murderd their friends and loved ones, during that Bible study.

That case also showing that forgiveness does not mean the transgression does not have to be dealt with.

Either in this life, or in the hereafter.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Tambora]

My goodness. You'll have to define some terms there, Tam.

Sin, debt, transgression.

I want it defined by scripture what those words mean.
And if the atonement blood forgives your sin, and therefore you do not have to suffer the penalty of your sin, then who is it that is supposed to my debt if my debt was forgiven?
In other words, doesn't making someone else pay for my debt mean my sins were not really forgiven in the true sense of the word as per scripture?
The atonement blood is for forgiveness of sin.

So how does scripture describe that forgiveness?
Is this forgiveness like a 'pardon'?
A pardon not only relieves you from penalty of your crime, but wipes your crime from the record as if you had never committed that crime.
You are seen as innocent of the crime.
Is that the type of forgiveness of the atonement blood?
If so, then why does someone else have to pay for the crime you committed?

It boils down to this ......
Did the atonement blood PAY our debt for sinning or FORGIVE us sinning?

This will get into the implication of ....... What debt

BTW...don't you owe me 20 bucks?

I was hoping you would get senile and forget. hehe!

But ask yourself, did Christ's blood forgive sin or pay for
Why would anyone whose sin was forgiven need anyone to pay for it?
I mean, if it's forgiven, then there is no sin to pay for.
So what is Christ 'paying' for?

I hope I'm explaining it clearly.
I know what I'm saying, but I may not be saying it the best way.

 

[patrick jane]

Good question. Did Jesus Christ pay the debt of our sin, or did He "cover our sins" and please God? Propitiation. Remission. Reconciliation. Ransom. Cleansed. I think the debt of sin must be paid for forgiveness from God. Jesus Christ paid the price. As far as someone owing you money and "forgiving" the "debt" but making someone else pay is not forgiving the debt IMO. Forgiving the debt and not getting paid period, is forgiveness of that debt.

1 John 1:7 KJV - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Colossians 1:14 KJV - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:20-22 KJV - And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


1 Corinthians 6:20 KJV - For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Timothy 2:6 KJV - Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[jsanford108]

Interesting post.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[patrick jane]

Interesting post.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Hebrews 9:22 KJV - [FONT=&quot]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.[/FONT]

 

[DAN P]

Interesting post.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Hi and who was given ATONEMENT , Israel !!

What does ATONEMENT mean , PLACATE , CLEANSE , FORGIVE , PARDON and after 1600 years of ANIMAL SACRIFICES , Christ death on the cross PAID for all those sins as WRITTEN in Heb 9:15 that 1600 years of animal sacrifices HAD COVERED !!

See STRONG'S H3722 !!

dan p

 

[jsanford108]

Hi and who was given ATONEMENT , Israel !!

What does ATONEMENT mean , PLACATE , CLEANSE , FORGIVE , PARDON and after 1600 years of ANIMAL SACRIFICES , Christ death on the cross PAID for all those sins as WRITTEN in Heb 9:15 that 1600 years of animal sacrifices HAD COVERED !!

See STRONG'S H3722 !!

dan p

No offense Dan P, but I do not get into debates on what is directed at specifically Israel. I find that those who want to pick and choose specific bits of Scripture, and apply them solely to Israel, are fringe groups, who wish to for some reason debate about Hebrews more than they want to discuss theology, doctrine, history, faith, etc.

That is why I never response to them. I just don't want you to think I am ignoring you specifically, as this is the second time you have tagged me in such a post. And, this way, all those "Israel specific verses" people can see why I never address them or their threads/posts.

 

[Right Divider]

No offense Dan P, but I do not get into debates on what is directed at specifically Israel. I find that those who want to pick and choose specific bits of Scripture, and apply them solely to Israel, are fringe groups, who wish to for some reason debate about Hebrews more than they want to discuss theology, doctrine, history, faith, etc.

That is why I never response to them. I just don't want you to think I am ignoring you specifically, as this is the second time you have tagged me in such a post. And, this way, all those "Israel specific verses" people can see why I never address them or their threads/posts.

That is just plain silly.

 

[jsanford108]

That is just plain silly.

Thanks for your input.

 

[DAN P]

No offense Dan P, but I do not get into debates on what is directed at specifically Israel. I find that those who want to pick and choose specific bits of Scripture, and apply them solely to Israel, are fringe groups, who wish to for some reason debate about Hebrews more than they want to discuss theology, doctrine, history, faith, etc.

That is why I never response to them. I just don't want you to think I am ignoring you specifically, as this is the second time you have tagged me in such a post. And, this way, all those "Israel specific verses" people can see why I never address them or their threads/posts.

Hi and do you disagree that Israel did not sacrifice animals for their ATONEMENT for sins ??

Heb 9:15 says that , by means of the REDEMPTION of the first Covenant , and Chtist blood paid for all those sins committed under the first covenant !!

And persuade God and NOT me , Gal 1:10 !!

Believe what you want !!

dan p

 

[Tambora]

Hebrews 9:22 KJV - And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Right.
The blood was for remission/forgiveness of sin.
But how does payment for sin fit in?
Is payment separate from the blood atonement of forgiveness?

 

[patrick jane]

Right.
The blood was for remission/forgiveness of sin.
But how does payment for sin fit in?
Is payment separate from the blood atonement of forgiveness?

I think Christ's sacrifice is a payment and animal sacrifices were for remission. :idunno: Paul says we were bought with a price and that Jesus Christ was a ransom for all.

 

[DAN P]

I think Christ's sacrifice is a payment and animal sacrifices were for remission. :idunno: Paul says we were bought with a price and that Jesus Christ was a ransom for all.

L believe that HEB 9:23 AND 26 answer the question of payment with Heb 9:15 !!

dan p

 

[Tambora]

I think Christ's sacrifice is a payment and animal sacrifices were for remission. :idunno: Paul says we were bought with a price and that Jesus Christ was a ransom for all.

It does say that.
So who is the ransom payment made to, and who is he holding for ransom?

 

[patrick jane]

It does say that.
So who is the ransom payment made to, and who is he holding for ransom?

Jesus Christ is the ransom payment, one could say we were being held hostage to sin and the payment was to God.

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I know there is much more to it than that but those are my thoughts.

Is atonement fulfilled through God's grace, or does God still require atonement?

Colossians 2:9-10 KJV - [FONT=&quot]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:[/FONT]

 

[Tambora]

Jesus Christ is the ransom payment, one could say we were being held hostage to sin and the payment was to God.

That would make GOD the one holding folks for ransom, and demanding a payment to set them free.
So who is GOD holding captive for ransom that need to be set free from Him?

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I know there is much more to it than that but those are my thoughts.

Is atonement fulfilled through God's grace, or does God still require atonement?

It's good to work through questions.

And I think this will help see the difference between Israel and the BOC.
For as you have indicated, the BOC is forgiven by grace which is unmerited and free.
Unmerited (grace) would mean there is no debt to be payed for, because debt implies something owed.


Romans 4
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

One cannot 'pay' for grace.
Right?

 

[Tambora]

L believe that HEB 9:23 AND 26 answer the question of payment with Heb 9:15 !!

dan p

Hebrews 9
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


Redemption is a payment to recuse one that owes a debt.
We see that with what the kinsman redeemer does.
We say in Hosea that he redeemed (made payment for) his bride Gomer who had left him and gone astray.
Who was holding Gomer captive (because the one holding her captive is the one the payment is made to)?

Redeeming requires a payment made.
Forgiveness does not.

 

[patrick jane]

That would make GOD the one holding folks for ransom, and demanding a payment to set them free.
So who is GOD holding captive for ransom that need to be set free from Him?


It's good to work through questions.

And I think this will help see the difference between Israel and the BOC.
For as you have indicated, the BOC is forgiven by grace which is unmerited and free.
Unmerited (grace) would mean there is no debt to be payed for, because debt implies something owed.


Romans 4
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

One cannot 'pay' for grace.
Right?

Right, I was thinking of those things when I made that post. The rejecting of Christ and the DBR brought forgiveness of our sins and with the blood of Christ we are justified and have access to God's grace by faith. Christ's blood is the atonement, I would say.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.