Shilo and Lee on God

[Nineveh]

This thread was split from here.

Repent:
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.

2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it

3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.


(1.)God felt remorse that he had made us. (2.)He regretted doing that. (3.)But creation wasn't a sin God committed. It was our evil hearts that made God sorry.

lmohm,
Have you read BR X so far?

 

[lovemeorhateme]

Repent:
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.

2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it

3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.


(1.)God felt remorse that he had made us. (2.)He regretted doing that. (3.)But creation wasn't a sin God committed. It was our evil hearts that made God sorry.

lmohm,
Have you read BR X so far?

I have read some of it. I will keep reading with interest.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

(1.)God felt remorse that he had made us. (2.)He regretted doing that. (3.)But creation wasn't a sin God committed. It was our evil hearts that made God sorry.

Certainly God is grieved at sin, that is actually one of the meaning of "nacham," which I think does apply here, as in the NIV translation of Gen. 6:6. But if God regretted creating man, then didn't God "miss the mark"? He tried to do good, and did not succeed, and that is a definition the Bible gives, of sin, God calls that sinning, to miss the mark.

And how about the questions I asked here? Answers would be appreciated, please...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Nineveh]

Certainly God is grieved at sin, that is actually one of the meaning of "nacham," which I think does apply here, as in the NIV translation of Gen. 6:6. But if God regretted creating man,

There is no if in this. God was sorry He had made us.

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

then didn't God "miss the mark"? He tried to do good, and did not succeed, and that is a definition the Bible gives, of sin, God calls that sinning, to miss the mark.

How can you possibly read the above paragraph and come away with the idea it was somehow God's fault at all? He created good, we destroyed it. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

And how about the questions I asked here? Answers would be appreciated, please...

Then I have some questions, in regard to Jonah...

...

The answer here clearly is "no," but it would seem the Open View would say, "yes."

It seems your mind was already made up, did you really want to discuss it?

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Nineveh,

Lee: ... then didn't God "miss the mark"? He tried to do good, and did not succeed, and that is a definition the Bible gives, of sin, God calls that sinning, to miss the mark.

Nineveh: How can you possibly read the above paragraph and come away with the idea it was somehow God's fault at all? He created good, we destroyed it.

He did more than create good, though, are we being deists here? No, this won't do, God was involved, all along the way, and if his purpose failed, then he tried to do good, and missed the mark, that's "hamartia," the word in the Bible for sin:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That is sin, to come short of complete perfection, to come short of complete accomplishment, in all the good we set out to do.

Nineveh: It seems your mind was already made up, did you really want to discuss it?

I am eager to discuss this, and I am also quite convinced that God does not repent, in any sense, as well.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Nineveh]

He did more than create good, though, are we being deists here? No, this won't do, God was involved, all along the way, and if his purpose failed, then he tried to do good, and missed the mark, that's "hamartia," the word in the Bible for sin:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Sorry, but before we failed to obey, God said His creation was very good. Not "very good except...".

That is sin, to come short of complete perfection, to come short of complete accomplishment, in all the good we set out to do.

You need a new definition of sin, lee. Sin = disobeying God. God can not sin. There is no shadow of turning in Him. It's sad you would make God out to be "sinful" merely to exonerate your theology.

I am eager to discuss this, and I am also quite convinced that God does not repent, in any sense, as well.

You have already missed the point about God being sorry He made us....

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Nineveh,

Sorry, but before we failed to obey, God said His creation was very good. Not "very good except...".

I was talking about God being involved after creation, though.

You need a new definition of sin, lee. Sin = disobeying God. God can not sin.

Then why is "hamartia" used as the main word for sin in the New Testament? It is an archery word, to miss the mark, and if God can do this, indeed, he can sin, and has sinned.

Some folks say God could break his laws, and he wouldn't be sinning, but I disagree with them. If God acted in an unloving way, out of malice, that would be a sin, though he would not be disobeying God.

There is no shadow of turning in Him. It's sad you would make God out to be "sinful" merely to exonerate your theology.

I think that's an implication in your view, though, not mine!

You have already missed the point about God being sorry He made us....

Well, if God tried to do good, and failed at it, that is a primary part of the Scriptural definition, of sin.

From the Friberg dictionary: "Sin: literally miss the mark, be in error."

And if God is sorry he made us, he was in error, and if he made us for a good purpose, and that purpose was not accomplished, he missed the mark, he sinned.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

....and if he made us for a good purpose, and that purpose was not accomplished, he missed the mark, he sinned.

It is also possible to say that His purpose is not accomplished yet. An arrow has not missed the mark if it is still in flight towards the target.

 

[Nineveh]

I was talking about God being involved after creation, though.

Right, that's when God was made sorry He created us, after creation, shorty before the flood.

Then why is "hamartia" used as the main word for sin in the New Testament? It is an archery word, to miss the mark, and if God can do this, indeed, he can sin, and has sinned.

Some folks say God could break his laws, and he wouldn't be sinning, but I disagree with them. If God acted in an unloving way, out of malice, that would be a sin, though he would not be disobeying God.

You have some twisted theology. One one hand you believe God never repents, on the other you accuse Him of sinning. What can I say?

God did indeed create good and we humans disobeyed Him. We are the ones who needed to repent: (1)To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite. (2)To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it. and (3) To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins. God merely did #2, He felt regret and changed His mind about us.

I think that's an implication in your view, though, not mine!

James seems to think there is "no shadow of turning" in a Righteous and Holy Creator God either. So you are on your own.

Well, if God tried to do good, and failed at it, that is a primary part of the Scriptural definition, of sin.

God did create good. Why are you so hot to lay men's sins at God's feet?

From the Friberg dictionary: "Sin: literally miss the mark, be in error."

With your definition, you are sinning. You have "missed the mark" by laying men's sins at God's feet.

And if God is sorry he made us, he was in error, and if he made us for a good purpose, and that purpose was not accomplished, he missed the mark, he sinned.

God Himself said He was sorry he made us.

I'll be on the other side of the room when you tell God that to His face.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: Then why is "hamartia" used as the main word for sin in the New Testament? It is an archery word, to miss the mark, and if God can do this, indeed, he can sin, and has sinned.

Nineveh: You have some twisted theology. One one hand you believe God never repents, on the other you accuse Him of sinning. What can I say?

Well, no, this is a "reduction to absurdity" argument. The procedure is to produce an implication from the other person's view that no one would accept, and this then means that either the logic or the premises are incorrect.

I don't believe God sins, nor do you, and this is the point of this type of argument, to arrive at such an absurdity. Now we need to examine to see whether the logic or the premises are faulty, one of them must be incorrect here, because the conclusion is certainly wrong.

Lee: Well, if God tried to do good, and failed at it, that is a primary part of the Scriptural definition, of sin.

Nineveh: God did create good. Why are you so hot to lay men's sins at God's feet?

Well, again, I don't believe God sins. Here is the argument: the premise is that God tried to do good, and failed at it, the deduction is that this fits the Biblical definition of a sin, and that is what we must examine, where is the error, here? The conclusion is certainly unacceptable, so there must be an error here, further back.

Lee: And if God is sorry he made us, he was in error...

Nineveh: God Himself said He was sorry he made us.

I'll be on the other side of the room when you tell God that to His face.

And "nacham" can have other meanings, why must we insist on this one meaning here, except because this is needed by the Open View? I do not need to choose this meaning, God was grieved, this is even supported by the context:

Genesis 6:6 The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Not "his heart was filled with regret." And if Noah had followed the Nephilim, then there would have been no righteous person at all, they all would have drowned in the flood, and the result of creation would have been unredeemable evil, complete evil, and initiated by the hand of God.

This again, is an absurdity, so this won't do, and we must refuse, as a result, the Open View.

Knight: Which do you agree with more....?

A. God withdrew His threat to Nineveh at some point in time.

B. God's threat was "withdrawn" for all eternity past. In other words . . . His threat actually wasn't withdrawn because Nineveh was ordained to repent an eternity into the past in the first place.

Well, Z Man has made a good response, and I would chime in and say that God's threat was from their perspective, to bring about the repentance God knew would happen, God knew he would change his response, as here:

John 6:5-6 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

When the fish were offered as a result, Jesus set out to do a miracle, just as he knew he would, when he asked a question from Philip's perspective, like when a parent says to a child, "Now where shall we put these dishes?"

Jonah knew God would change his response, as well! That is why he ran.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Nineveh]

I don't believe God sins, nor do you, and this is the point of this type of argument, to arrive at such an absurdity. Now we need to examine to see whether the logic or the premises are faulty, one of them must be incorrect here, because the conclusion is certainly wrong.

You seemed to want to define sin as "missing the mark". Do you believe God "missed the mark" when He created? Or not? If not why keep saying that's the definition of sin and why use that argument at all?

He states He thought everything was very good.

After men rebelled against God, aka disobeyed aka sinned, He grieved and was sorry He made us. According to the Bible and the dictionary, that meant He "[felt] such regret for past conduct as to change [His] mind regarding it" aka repented.

According to my Hebrew word study:
nacham: sigh, ie breath strongly; by impl. to be sorry, ie. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflex.) rue; (unfavorably) to avenge...

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

Clearly that would have been one of the unfavorable times the word nacham is used.

 

[shilohproject]

You seemed to want to define sin as "missing the mark". Do you believe God "missed the mark" when He created? Or not? If not why keep saying that's the definition of sin and why use that argument at all?

He states He thought everything was very good.

After men rebelled against God, aka disobeyed aka sinned, He grieved and was sorry He made us. According to the Bible and the dictionary, that meant He "[felt] such regret for past conduct as to change [His] mind regarding it" aka repented.

Just to throw a new twist to this discussion, how could Adam & Eve have been reasonably expected to either rebel or not-rebel given that they did not know the differance in good and evil at the time they "chose" evil? Does this suggest at least a minor flaw in either the creation or the expectations of the creator? :think:

 

[Nineveh]

It seems pretty simple to me. God said, "Don't" satan said, "Did God really say..." and Eve bought it.

I don't see a flaw in God's "very good creation", I see a flaw in choosing to listen to "spirits" who would whisper in our ears things like, "Did God really say homosexuality was an abomination?"

I don't think God's one Law was too tough either, but like with homo-ism, some of us are willing to set aside what God says because something appears "pleasing to the eye".

I don't think you offered so much of a "twist" than the same ideas in different words that's already been presented.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Nineveh: You seemed to want to define sin as "missing the mark".

Actually, the Bible says that...

Do you believe God "missed the mark" when He created?

Yes, if he had a good purpose, which he did not accomplish.

He states He thought everything was very good.

And then he thought it very bad, and if that was contrary to God's overall plan, then he failed in his purpose, he missed the mark, and that is sin.

According to the Bible and the dictionary, that meant He "[felt] such regret for past conduct as to change [His] mind regarding it" aka repented.

Then this is surely missing the mark! And a mistake, and if Noah had followed the Nephilim, the result of creation would have been complete, unredeemable evil, and all at God's initiative.

Clearly [Gen. 6:7] would have been one of the unfavorable times the word nacham is used.

Yes, I agree...

Drbrumley: [Jer. 18] is one of my favorite sections of scripture. It is such plain talk that it is beoynd me how somone could think it means somthing other than it says.

Unless you read on! The analogy continues in Jer. 19, with a pot being smashed at the "Potsherd Gate," judgment is coming, and it is sure, and thus saying that "if they repent, I will relent," does not tell us if God can know when people will not repent, thus judgment indeed can be unconditional. Contrast the book of Jonah with the book of Obadiah! In Obadiah, Nineveh's judgment is certain, they will not repent, in contrast to Jonah, when they did, and God knew that too, and so did Jonah, which is why he ran.

And as far as "if they repented" being interpreted in view of God's knowledge of their repentance, this threat was from man's perspective, not God's perspective, as when Jesus said "What shall we do?" to Andrew (Jn. 6:5), though he knew he was about to feed them all miraculously. Jesus spoke conditionally, from Andrew's perspective.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Nineveh]

Actually, the Bible says that...

Post 11 you said, "From the Friberg dictionary: "Sin: literally miss the mark, be in error."

I'll side with a normal dictionary on this. Disobedience to God is a better definition of sin, we can see an example of this from the earliest pages of Scriptures. sin: "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God."

I asked, "Do you believe God "missed the mark" when He created?" You answer:

Yes, if he had a good purpose, which he did not accomplish.

There is that "if" again. Either you believe your definition of sin and you believe God fits your definition or you don't. Quit with your "if" game and come right out and state your belief. Does God sin? Did He sin when He created?

And then he thought it very bad, and if that was contrary to God's overall plan, then he failed in his purpose, he missed the mark, and that is sin.

if if if...

I truly believe, after speaking with you a few times, if you didn't have "if" you wouldn't have a theology.

So you do believe God sinned then....

God changed His mind aka repented after men disobeyed. What part of this are you ignoring?

Then this is surely missing the mark! And a mistake, and if Noah had followed the Nephilim, the result of creation would have been complete, unredeemable evil, and all at God's initiative.

if if if...

And twice you claim God sins....

God didn't "miss the mark" we did. We disobeyed.

"If" God preodained all evil, He is indeed a sinner and the Bible is lying when it records there is no shadow of turning in Him. He not only predestines everyone to "miss the mark" He thought it all out from before the foundation of the world.

However, the Bible records God delcaring some things (like sacrficing children to idols aka a sin) never even entered His mind. I don't see how God could pre-plan something that never even occured to Him.

"They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind."

At this point, it's hard for me to believe you when you said in post 54, "I don't believe God sins..." Unless of course you rely on and believe all those ifs in your arguments are giving you an out. If so, drop them and start stating what you do believe.

Yes, I agree...

Then drop the argument. The word means what it was translated into English as.

In Obadiah, Nineveh's judgment is certain,

Perhaps you mean Nahum, Obadiah is about Edom, not Nineveh.

 

[shilohproject]

It seems pretty simple to me.

You do not exist in a time before mankind knew the differance between good and evil. They did.

 

[Nineveh]

You do not exist in a time before mankind knew the differance between good and evil. They did.

What is your point?

 

[shilohproject]

What is your point?

They had no way of knowing that disobedience was sin-evil, etc. We, of course, do.

 

[Nineveh]

Are you implying they were imbeciles or just didn't understand God's spoken language?

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Nineveh,

Lee: In Obadiah, Nineveh's judgment is certain...

Nineveh: Perhaps you mean Nahum, Obadiah is about Edom, not Nineveh.

You are right, I was thinking of Nahum...

Lee: Actually, the Bible says that...

Nineveh: Post 11 you said, "From the Friberg dictionary: "Sin: literally miss the mark, be in error."

I'll side with a normal dictionary on this. Disobedience to God is a better definition of sin...

Maybe I didn't make it clear that the Friberg dictionary is a standard Biblical Greek dictionary, it's not an English dictionary, it explains the meaning of the Greek words. So indeed sin is missing the mark, according to the Bible, and it is also disobedience to God, this word has many aspects, and it has all of them.

Nineveh: Do you believe God "missed the mark" when He created?

Lee: Yes, if he had a good purpose, which he did not accomplish.

Nineveh: Quit with your "if" game and come right out and state your belief. Does God sin? Did He sin when He created?

No, God does not sin, nor did he sin when he created. This is, again, a "reduction to an absurdity" argument, I do not believe this conclusion, and that is the point of such an argument. Please do understand what I am trying to do here, I say "if" because that is a statement I do not believe! I think you do believe God had a good purpose which he did not accomplish, and I think the conclusion (which we both disagree with) follows from this belief, in the Open View.

Lee: And then he thought it very bad, and if that was contrary to God's overall plan, then he failed in his purpose, he missed the mark, and that is sin.

Nineveh: if if if...

I truly believe, after speaking with you a few times, if you didn't have "if" you wouldn't have a theology.

So you do believe God sinned then...

No, I do not believe God sinned, you need to address the premises and the logic, to find out whether I have reached this conclusion incorrectly. It does no good to protest the conclusion. That is, again, the point of this type of argument, the conclusion is supposed to be incorrect.

Nineveh: God changed His mind aka repented after men disobeyed. What part of this are you ignoring?

Then God failed in his purpose to do good, in creation, and thus I make my conclusion.

Lee: Then this is surely missing the mark! And a mistake, and if Noah had followed the Nephilim, the result of creation would have been complete, unredeemable evil, and all at God's initiative.

Nineveh: God didn't "miss the mark" we did. We disobeyed.

Then God had no good purpose in creating the world? I do think he did, though.

Nineveh: "If" God preodained all evil, He is indeed a sinner.

So now you do recognize this form of argument! You are using it now with me, with (as you make quite plain), an "if" in your statement. That is just what I am doing, too, on this other point.

Now if God preordained the cross (he did, quite clearly), does that make him a sinner? This was the worst sinful deed ever done on earth.

"They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

But "mind" here is more literally "heart." Surely we cannot hold that God did not think of this possibility, that this possibility simply did not occur to him. And then we must also refer to Ezekiel 20:

Ezekiel 20:25-26 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the Lord.

Thus even this, God is saying, was under his control, all that happens is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross, where he bore all the sin and pain of the world, and this sin, and this pain, too.

Blessings,
Lee