ECT Salvation Obtained by Faith Only

[Jerry Shugart]

According to this passage all who "believe" in the Lord Jesus have eternal life:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:14-15; NASB).​

With these words in view how can anyone argue that salvation is not obtained by faith and faith alone?

 

[meshak]

Most Christians agree with you, even MAD Christians.

why are you getting so many fractions from them?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Most Christians agree with you, even MAD Christians.

No, most those who call themselves MAD on this forum argue that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved until they believed and did works.

 

[turbosixx]

According to this passage all who "believe" in the Lord Jesus have eternal life:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:14-15; NASB).​

With these words in view how can anyone argue that salvation is not obtained by faith and faith alone?

Look at the example given.
Num. 21:8 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."

How were those who were bitten by the snakes saved? Didn’t they have to do something? Yes, they had to look upon it! If they were within site it was easy, but if they were out of sight, they had to get within site. Either way, they HAD to look upon it. Of those bitten, who were the ones who lived? Those who looked at the bronze serpent, and I would suggest to you those are the true believers. Those who's belief caused action.

Belief causes obedience to the gospel. God's grace requires action.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

Rom. 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

 

[turbosixx]

With these words in view how can anyone argue that salvation is not obtained by faith and faith alone?

Because "by faith alone" is man's words, this is what God's word says about faith alone.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Eph. 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[way 2 go]

No, most those who call themselves MAD on this forum argue that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved until they believed and did works.

Jews under the law were born saved by heritage , John 8:39
circumcision was the 1st part of keeping the law

had to be faithful and as a demonstration of that faith was keeping the law

salvation could be lost and was
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

 

[Bright Raven]

Do MAD proponents believe this?

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[way 2 go]

Because "by faith alone" is man's words, this is what God's word says about faith alone.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

you cant add law to grace

Rom_11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

but you can have instances of grace under law
Rom_4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

 

[way 2 go]

Do MAD proponents believe this?

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

we do

 

[Bright Raven]

we do

I know brother. I just wanted conformation. :thumb:

 

[turbosixx]

Do MAD proponents believe this?

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That verse doesn't say "without works" and the next verse says:
10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[turbosixx]

you cant add law to grace

Rom_11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

but you can have instances of grace under law
Rom_4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Are we not under any law?

 

[way 2 go]

Are we not under any law?

society's law

 

[turbosixx]

society's law

So gay marriage is ok with God?

 

[Bright Raven]

That verse doesn't say "without works" and the next verse says:
10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are created to do good works. We are not saved by good works. Read the text.

 

[way 2 go]

So gay marriage is ok with God?

no

your point?

 

[turbosixx]

no

your point?

If I understood you correctly, we are not under any law as far as God is concerned. You said we we're under society’s law, which of late gay marriage is ok. So I was wondering if gay Christians want to get married, does God consider that living in sin in your understanding. If so, wouldn’t that imply that we are under law?

 

[turbosixx]

We are created to do good works. We are not saved by good works. Read the text.

I agree. We are not saved by works, but does that mean we can be saved without them? Read the text, it doesn't say "without" works. Verses 8-9 says "not by works" and 10 says were are to do them. Even Luther said faith that saves would never be alone. That is not "without works" or faith alone, which agrees with what James said:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

[way 2 go]

If I understood you correctly, we are not under any law as far as God is concerned. You said we we're under society’s law, which of late gay marriage is ok. So I was wondering if gay Christians want to get married, does God consider that living in sin in your understanding. If so, wouldn’t that imply that we are under law?

this is difficult and I don't know that I can
explain this to you.

Christians are not under the law but sin is still sin

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

 

[turbosixx]

this is difficult and I don't know that I can
explain this to you.

Christians are not under the law but sin is still sin

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Romans is talking about the law of Moses.

We are not under the law of Moses anymore, but the law was changed to Christ’s law.
Heb. 7:11 11Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Paul recognized he was under law Christ’s law.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Which agrees with this passage.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person