ECT Romans 9:21 the clay
- Thread starter Tambora
- Start date
I think it's Israel, but then again there is Romans 9:24 KJV -
I think you might be right.
But WHY do you think that?
Romans 9 KJV
(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
It doesn't have to mean that Gentiles were of the clay.
It could mean that salvation comes to the clay just as it does to the Gentiles.
Along the same lines as .......
Acts 15 KJV
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Even though both will receive salvation, Israel and the Gentiles (or BOC) are still spoken of separately.
Thoughts?
Interplanner
Well-known member
The discussion of 9-11 is from 3:3. Why don't more, or even all, Jews believe? Because there is free will and they are human. He is simply saying that there never was a conception about the ethne Israel that all of it believed. The Israel of God is all those who have faith no matter what ethne.
The clay analogy is one proof, others are given especially in 11:1-4. He makes some generalizations but he also know there are exceptions both ways.
The clay analogy is one proof, others are given especially in 11:1-4. He makes some generalizations but he also know there are exceptions both ways.
Because they were partially blinded.
The Apostle Paul is reminding Israel of what Jeremiah told them in Jeremiah 18 when a prior intteruption in God's plan and purpose for them had also been the case.
Keep in mind that Rom. 11:25's "this mystery" is not a reference to Israel's hardening in part or for a part in time; for that was prophesied.
Rather, it refers to the seeming enigma of both how long said time will last, AND what God is doing during said interim.
The Apostle Paul is basically asserting why God can do this - because He is Sovereign.
He will then remind them that does not do away with His "covenant unto them," though.
Keep in mind that Rom. 11:25's "this mystery" is not a reference to Israel's hardening in part or for a part in time; for that was prophesied.
Rather, it refers to the seeming enigma of both how long said time will last, AND what God is doing during said interim.
The Apostle Paul is basically asserting why God can do this - because He is Sovereign.
He will then remind them that does not do away with His "covenant unto them," though.
Sonnet
New member
Romans 9 appears to be the most difficult of all scriptures.
Is it possible that it (clay unto honour) actually refers to Christ - and by extension, all those made heirs - Israelites of faith and Gentiles of faith?
Paul's summary at vv.30-32 must, surely, be kept in mind whilst reading all that comes before.
The clay unto dishonour would, potentially, be all mankind - since we have all been unbelievers.
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I believe it (the clay) to be speaking of Israel.
The clay and potter reference that Paul reminds them of (in the OT) was about Israel.
The "Not my people are now my people" reference that Paul reminds them of (in the OT) was about Israel.
And this verse specifically says whom it is about.
Romans 9 KJV
(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
The clay and potter reference that Paul reminds them of (in the OT) was about Israel.
The "Not my people are now my people" reference that Paul reminds them of (in the OT) was about Israel.
And this verse specifically says whom it is about.
Romans 9 KJV
(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Jeremiah 18 KJV
(2) Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
(3) Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
(4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Because Paul starts out talking about the Israelites as his brethren and promises and such
Romans 9:3-4 KJV -
What's also interesting about that is that, contrary to the heresy that is Replacement Theology: just as with the Apostle Paul many centuries later; Jeremiah also views both Judah (Jews) and Israel as Israel.
For by the time of, and prior to the Apostle Paul, that Judahite (the Lord) Who had been "sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" - also reminded one of their "other sheep not" of that "fold" - "salvation is of the Jews."
For by the time of, and prior to the Apostle Paul, that Judahite (the Lord) Who had been "sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" - also reminded one of their "other sheep not" of that "fold" - "salvation is of the Jews."
Interplanner
Well-known member
Interplanner
Well-known member
The last line is true not by going back to the old covenant but because the new one came. That's what Hebrews is saying. This is why the Isaiah line is quoted here; the covenant came and was enacted.
Not true about the mystery. it is not about the interruption. it is the same as Rom 3:3: why don't ALL OR MOST of Israel believe? The answer is that there is nothing magical about any ethnic stock anywhere on earth that would tend to believe!
re Jer 18:
so now there is an additional theory that there is an additional interruption of God dealing with Israel? When were you going to tell us? Please get out all your interruption toys so we know how many you think there are. Are they mentioned in Gal 3-4 or 2 Cor 3-5? Or just in your unprohibited books?
Lol, books based expert. Seriously; you did not see the point I was making?
More and more, I am persuaded by your books based illogic not to bother attempting to answer you; you very well know there is no point no matter what I might post - it is not going to fit the Preterist notions your mind has been so seared shut with the hot iron of.
Her socks are dirty :chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
Yes, you think that the covenant that is being honored at the end of Rom 11 is the old one! How many centuries had they been apprised that a new one was coming? Only 6? And that's just Jeremiah 23-33. Then there's Dan 9 with the covenant's arrival timestamped. God did enact the covenant as he said, and as Isaiah said, and the recipient of the promises is Christ (Acts 13) and those who believe on him.
:thumb:
Correct!
The NC was implemented with the shed blood of Christ Jesus, and is in place right now.
It's mind boggling that someone can read the Bible, and then claim the NC isn't in place right now.
But, that's what MADists do, all because they have to divide everything into their two groups: "the church" and "Israel".
Their hypocrisy is glaring. They call Jesus "Christ", and accept "Christ", but they can't accept a New Covenant because they claim it was promised to Israel.
Somebody needs to tell these MADist's, that the "Christ" was promised to Israel.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Well, their objection is what appears to be the land attached to the new covenant in Jer 23-33. They can't see it 'pushing beyond the boundaries' and don't see it do that in Isaiah either.
Your mouth is filthy.