RELIGION: A Diversion Away From Christ and His Gospel

[Robert Pate]

Religion, whether it be the Catholic religion, the Baptist religion or whatever religion, does not bring you closer to Christ. It actually drives a wedge between you and Christ. Jesus and the Pharisees were at odds with each other when they should have been friends. They were both teachers of the law. It was the self righteousness of the Pharisees and their hypocracy that drove a wedge between them and Jesus.

All religions have one thing incommon. They are all about you who is a sinner. Whereas, the Gospel is all about Jesus and his Gospel. The minute that one becomes religious is the minute that one becomes a hypocrite. No one can please God by keeping the commandments. Paul said, "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity, it is very subjective, where the Gospel is objective (outside of us). Religion is basically man's presentation of himself (who is a sinner) to God for acceptance. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. If he did then Christ lived and died in vain.

Some Catholics claim that they have been infused with the righteousness of Christ and that God now sees them as righteous. There is nothing in the Bible that supports that doctrine. Paul said that we only have the "First fruits" of the Spirit, Romans 8:23 and not the fullness of the Spirit. Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15 also Romans 7:13-25.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners, there is nothing that we can do to change that. We are born sinners and we die sinners, Psalm 51:5. There are two types of sinners, saved sinners and unsaved sinners. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us. We had NOTHING, absolutly nothing to do with our salvation. It took place over 2000 years ago before we were born.

Paul said, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8.

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. If you are not a sinner then you don't qualify. We never arrive. We are always pressing towards the high calling that is in Jesus Christ, but we never reach the point where we can say that we have arrived. One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin. Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit don't need anyone to tell them that they are sinners. They know that they are sinners.

 

[Squeaky]

Your stumbling a little here on law and commandments. There is the old testament law of sin and death. And old testament commandments.

Then there is the new testament law of Christ. And Christ's commandments.
Christians are suppose to keep the new testament law of Christ and the new testament commandments from Christ.

Gal 6:2-5
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For each one shall bear his own load.
(NKJ)

Christ changed the law and gave us new commandments to obey.

Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
(NKJ)


John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
(NKJ)

John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
(NKJ)

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
(NKJ)

 

[Robert Pate]

Your stumbling a little here on law and commandments. There is the old testament law of sin and death. And old testament commandments.

Then there is the new testament law of Christ. And Christ's commandments.
Christians are suppose to keep the new testament law of Christ and the new testament commandments from Christ.

Gal 6:2-5
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For each one shall bear his own load.
(NKJ)

Christ changed the law and gave us new commandments to obey.

Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
(NKJ)


John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
(NKJ)

John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
(NKJ)

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
(NKJ)

There is only one law "GOD"S LAW".

Jesus took the law and spiritualized it and also elevated it.

To keep the law you would have to be, NOT like Christ. You would have to be Christ.

"By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

 

[Cruciform]

Some Catholics claim that they have been infused with the righteousness of Christ and that God now sees them as righteous. There is nothing in the Bible that supports that doctrine.

Categorically refuted here, here, and here. So much for your decidedly unbiblical and unChristian claim.

 

[Robert Pate]

Categorically refuted here, here, and here. So much for your decidedly unbiblical and unChristian claim.

The same old quotes from James who was a Judaizer, Galatians 2:12.

We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26.

What you Catholics can't figure out is how God justifies ungodly sinners, Romans 4:5.

Because you are blind to the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 4:4. You just can't see it.

 

[Cruciform]

The same old quotes from James who was a Judaizer, Galatians 2:12.We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26.What you Catholics can't figure out is how God justifies ungodly sinners, Romans 4:5.Because you are blind to the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 4:4.You just can't see it.

Already categorically refuted (Post #4).

 

[Robert Pate]

Already categorically refuted (Post #4).

How much grape juice do you have to drink and how many wafers do you have to eat before God says... "Enter in my faithful servant"?

What is required? How many good works does it take to merit salvation?

Jesus said, "Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" When and how do we reach perfection?

 

[Cruciform]

How much grape juice do you have to drink and how many wafers do you have to eat before God says.."Enter in my faithful servant"?What is required?How many good works does it take to merit salvation?Jesus said,"Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect"When and how do we reach perfection?

Post #4 stands as given.

 

[Robert Pate]

Post #4 stands as given.

I looked at post #4. There is very little scripture to back up what the writer says.

The writer implies that we have or can produce some sort of righteousness that God will accept.

Paul taught no such thing.

Paul said, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

I think that I believe Paul.

 

[beloved57]

Religion, whether it be the Catholic religion, the Baptist religion or whatever religion, does not bring you closer to Christ. It actually drives a wedge between you and Christ. Jesus and the Pharisees were at odds with each other when they should have been friends. They were both teachers of the law. It was the self righteousness of the Pharisees and their hypocracy that drove a wedge between them and Jesus.

All religions have one thing incommon. They are all about you who is a sinner. Whereas, the Gospel is all about Jesus and his Gospel. The minute that one becomes religious is the minute that one becomes a hypocrite. No one can please God by keeping the commandments. Paul said, "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity, it is very subjective, where the Gospel is objective (outside of us). Religion is basically man's presentation of himself (who is a sinner) to God for acceptance. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. If he did then Christ lived and died in vain.

Some Catholics claim that they have been infused with the righteousness of Christ and that God now sees them as righteous. There is nothing in the Bible that supports that doctrine. Paul said that we only have the "First fruits" of the Spirit, Romans 8:23 and not the fullness of the Spirit. Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15 also Romans 7:13-25.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners, there is nothing that we can do to change that. We are born sinners and we die sinners, Psalm 51:5. There are two types of sinners, saved sinners and unsaved sinners. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us. We had NOTHING, absolutly nothing to do with our salvation. It took place over 2000 years ago before we were born.

Paul said, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8.

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. If you are not a sinner then you don't qualify. We never arrive. We are always pressing towards the high calling that is in Jesus Christ, but we never reach the point where we can say that we have arrived. One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin. Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit don't need anyone to tell them that they are sinners. They know that they are sinners.

You teach that sinners Christ came to save will end up lost in their sins in unbelief ? What Happened, Why didnt He save them ?

 

[Robert Pate]

You teach that sinners Christ came to save will end up lost in their sins in unbelief ? What Happened, Why didnt He save them ?

Go back to the pit where you belong.

 

[beloved57]

Go back to the pit where you belong.

You teach that Christ's Death has been defeated by man, sin and the devil ! Dont you believe people Christ died for wind up in hell ?

 

[Interplanner]

I looked at post #4. There is very little scripture to back up what the writer says.

The writer implies that we have or can produce some sort of righteousness that God will accept.

Paul taught no such thing.

Paul said, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

I think that I believe Paul.

Cruciform,
I think you are referring to gratia imputa vs gratia infusa This expression comes from the Trentine CounterReformation bulls. They said that 'infusa' was taught by the NT not 'imputa' which the Reformers championed. 'Infusa' said that God's grace was realized in human experience(s). A person had to exhibit signs of that to be saved/justified. The Reformation said 'imputa' was a righteousness that was from the outside that 'covered' a sinful believer (they probably should have believed in their own sinfulness more than they did!).

I'm assuming of course that you know church history well enough to know what the Council of Trent was, and what Ribera's work on behalf of the Pope was as well.

It is true of course that Lutheranism developed a reputation for some rather loose activity, and still believed that they were covered by the cloak of Christ. That's not exactly the same issue. What Luther was burdened by originally was that he never felt enough of God's grace working in him, partly through the rejection of his life and career by his father, and so he protested against 'gratia infusa.' Especially when he realized what Romans and Galatians was saying!

 

[Interplanner]

The mistake of human religion is that it thinks God can be realized completely in the worshiper's experiences. The Reformation came along with one person who was totally worn out by that kind of effort and attempt, and who had found out there was an event in history in which God loved us and gave himself up for us, and that all the fulness of the Godhead indwelt that event, the Gospel. That's outside of the worshiper's experiences.

 

[Robert Pate]

Cruciform,
I think you are referring to gratia imputa vs gratia infusa This expression comes from the Trentine CounterReformation bulls. They said that 'infusa' was taught by the NT not 'imputa' which the Reformers championed. 'Infusa' said that God's grace was realized in human experience(s). A person had to exhibit signs of that to be saved/justified. The Reformation said 'imputa' was a righteousness that was from the outside that 'covered' a sinful believer (they probably should have believed in their own sinfulness more than they did!).

I'm assuming of course that you know church history well enough to know what the Council of Trent was, and what Ribera's work on behalf of the Pope was as well.

It is true of course that Lutheranism developed a reputation for some rather loose activity, and still believed that they were covered by the cloak of Christ. That's not exactly the same issue. What Luther was burdened by originally was that he never felt enough of God's grace working in him, partly through the rejection of his life and career by his father, and so he protested against 'gratia infusa.' Especially when he realized what Romans and Galatians was saying!

Right, Luther like Paul saw himself as a sinner.

I for sure would not want to stand before a Holy God in my flesh and present to God my righteousness. What a frightening thing that would be.

 

[Cruciform]

Cruciform, I think you are referring to gratia imputa vs gratia infusa This expression comes from the Trentine CounterReformation bulls. They said that 'infusa' was taught by the NT not 'imputa' which the Reformers championed.

Not exactly, since the Catholic Church also acknowledged the imputational aspect of initial justification along with its infusional aspect. Catholicism teaches that righteousness is both infused and imputed to the repentant believer. The error of the Protestants was in rejecting the infusional element of justification.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

I looked at post #4. There is very little scripture to back up what the writer says.

...according to the dictates of your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, anyway. :yawn:

 

[aikido7]

Religion, whether it be the Catholic religion, the Baptist religion or whatever religion, does not bring you closer to Christ. It actually drives a wedge between you and Christ. Jesus and the Pharisees were at odds with each other when they should have been friends. They were both teachers of the law. It was the self righteousness of the Pharisees and their hypocracy that drove a wedge between them and Jesus.

All religions have one thing incommon. They are all about you who is a sinner. Whereas, the Gospel is all about Jesus and his Gospel. The minute that one becomes religious is the minute that one becomes a hypocrite. No one can please God by keeping the commandments. Paul said, "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity, it is very subjective, where the Gospel is objective (outside of us). Religion is basically man's presentation of himself (who is a sinner) to God for acceptance. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. If he did then Christ lived and died in vain.

Some Catholics claim that they have been infused with the righteousness of Christ and that God now sees them as righteous. There is nothing in the Bible that supports that doctrine. Paul said that we only have the "First fruits" of the Spirit, Romans 8:23 and not the fullness of the Spirit. Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15 also Romans 7:13-25.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners, there is nothing that we can do to change that. We are born sinners and we die sinners, Psalm 51:5. There are two types of sinners, saved sinners and unsaved sinners. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us. We had NOTHING, absolutly nothing to do with our salvation. It took place over 2000 years ago before we were born.

Paul said, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8.

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. If you are not a sinner then you don't qualify. We never arrive. We are always pressing towards the high calling that is in Jesus Christ, but we never reach the point where we can say that we have arrived. One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin. Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit don't need anyone to tell them that they are sinners. They know that they are sinners.

The real Jesus clearly said his message was to "the House of Israel" and not the Gentiles. He mocked their praying style and referred to them as "dogs." Only Paul's open claim of sending the message of Jesus to "the nations" did the gospels get on board and minimize Jesus' true words of his intentions.

And now the faith has become something Jesus himself would not recognize. He would utterly reject it.

Now it has become a religion of Gentiles who have put him on a pedestal and worship him as a divinity. Jesus never said he was God or the Son of God, unless you count in John's gospel as history and not theology.

Which most historians don't. It is clearly not the Jesus of Mark, Luke and Matthew. It is a later, realized theology ABOUT Jesus, not OF Jesus.

 

[Robert Pate]

The real Jesus clearly said his message was to "the House of Israel" and not the Gentiles. He mocked their praying style and referred to them as "dogs." Only Paul's open claim of sending the message of Jesus to "the nations" did the gospels get on board and minimize Jesus' true words of his intentions.

And now the faith has become something Jesus himself would not recognize. He would utterly reject it.

Now it has become a religion of Gentiles who have put him on a pedestal and worship him as a divinity. Jesus never said he was God or the Son of God, unless you count in John's gospel as history and not theology.

Which most historians don't. It is clearly not the Jesus of Mark, Luke and Matthew. It is a later, realized theology ABOUT Jesus, not OF Jesus.

You are in serious trouble.

The reason that you don't quote scripture is because there is no scripture to verify what you are saying is true.

 

[Interplanner]

Aik
The earliest miracle of Jesus with explanation to it is the double: forgiveness and healing a paralytic. To show that his authority crossed over divine and this-world realms because he was God and Lord of all. It is in the gospels not the so-called "divine" John. Judaism immediately protested that he had made himself equal.

It was the OT that said he was coming as God and doing what he did. You're one installment late.