ECT Question to D'ists about a future destruction of Israel

[Interplanner]

Even you don't accept that Mt24A and Lk 21 are about the events of 66-72, what difference does that make in your system if you believe in a triumphant, golden, world-ruling Israel in the future?

I'm not sure that the future is all that triumphant given that Lk 21 with its time of 'wrath in fulfillment of all that is written' is in that future. That's sort of a superlative! But apparently you think so.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I will restore the years the locust have eaten.

 

[Interplanner]

I will restore the years the locust have eaten.

That's already true in Christ--the times of refreshing-- but of course you believe in 2P2P and so everything is a separate meaning to you.

but my question is not answered. The question was: why all the objection to something that is historic fact, in the past, and clearly what Christ was speaking of?

 

[Interplanner]

Literalism is elementary; the meaning in Christ is for the mature. Heb 5.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That's already true in Christ--the times of refreshing-- but of course you believe in 2P2P and so everything is a separate meaning to you.

but my question is not answered. The question was: why all the objection to something that is historic fact, in the past, and clearly what Christ was speaking of?

:chuckle:

Count up the years, it'll be 1000.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Literalism is elementary; the meaning in Christ is for the mature. Heb 5.

If maturity equals skepticism and unbelief, I will pass on that.

 

[northwye]

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9: 2-4

Hal Lindsey's literal interpretation of Revelation 9: 2-4 was that the locust-scorpions were Vietnam-era cobra helicopters.

Interpreting scripture by other scripture, as Isaiah 28: 13 says to do, leads back to other uses of locusts and scorpions in a metaphoric way.

In Joel 1: 4-7 locusts are not literal, but are metaphoric for those who have "laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree," that is, the false prophets are like locusts who eat up the substance, in this case the spiritual substance.

In Ezekiel 2: 3-6 God uses scorpions in a metaphoric way, in saying "And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4. For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5. And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house."
And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day."

We know that the scorpions in Ezekiel 2: 3-6 are not literal, because literal scorpions do not speak. Scorpions are those who follow false doctrines and practices.

Revelation 9: 16-19 says "And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt."

The literalists do not agree too well on what the "army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand" are. For example, Hal Lindsey in The Late Great Planet Earth says the army of horsemen are a huge Chinese army come to fight Israel, that is, the nation called Israel. Tim LaHaye says the huge army are not humans but are demon spirits.

But the huge army of horsemen is metaphor again and not literal.

Revelation 8: 18 says the horses have tails like serpents, a metaphor which is used in another New Testament text, Matthew 23: 33, where Christ calls the Pharisees a generation of vipers. The army of horsemen is not literal, but metaphoric for the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11.

A consistent literal interpretation of scripture denies the truth contained in the metaphors. And scripture which is not highly metaphoric is often more subtle and nuanced than the literalist mind can understand.

"For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Hebrews 5: 13-14

"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.: Hosea 12: 10

 

[beameup]

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [Mosiac Law observed]

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved [yet future]
Matthew 24:20b-22a

 

[patrick jane]

Even you don't accept that Mt24A and Lk 21 are about the events of 66-72, what difference does that make in your system if you believe in a triumphant, golden, world-ruling Israel in the future?

I'm not sure that the future is all that triumphant given that Lk 21 with its time of 'wrath in fulfillment of all that is written' is in that future. That's sort of a superlative! But apparently you think so.

Jerusalem was surrounded by a great haboob from 66-72, causing gritty drawers and sand in the eyes of the beholders. They were preparing for a triumphant golden world ruling future.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerusalem was surrounded by a great haboob from 66-72, causing gritty drawers and sand in the eyes of the beholders. They were preparing for a triumphant golden world ruling future.

There was indeed a great haboob on the red dirt, as they ate shish kabobs, and said where is the sign of thy coming. The bible student will reflect back on Gen 24:64B and notice the lighted camel, and then propel forward to Eph 2A where they will find no more red dirt but only the pomp and circumstance of the NHNE event.

 

[Interplanner]

:chuckle:

Count up the years, it'll be 1000.

Unless you think all this is a joke, my question is also: don't you have other ways/passages that 'insure' that Israel will be in a triumphant battle, even if you 'lose' Lk 21 and/or Mt24A etc to what happened in the 6th decade there at the hands of two legions of Rome etc?

 

[Interplanner]

If maturity equals skepticism and unbelief, I will pass on that.

It is incredulous that you would say that when the material about the DofJ has been used in church history to stop destructive skeptics and unbelief in its tracks.

It is extremely agitating to me that people like Danoh not only deny this kind of significance, but deny the impact of church history toward that significance.

I will be using the same in my next novel. Or trying.

 

[Danoh]

Even you don't accept that Mt24A and Lk 21 are about the events of 66-72, what difference does that make in your system if you believe in a triumphant, golden, world-ruling Israel in the future?

I'm not sure that the future is all that triumphant given that Lk 21 with its time of 'wrath in fulfillment of all that is written' is in that future. That's sort of a superlative! But apparently you think so.

One problem I find with your above is that Luke 21 is spoken within Old Testament ground.

Further, at Pentecost; the Spirit declared unto Israel through Peter that Israel was in its' last days as Prophesied.

In other words, that also was still Old Testament ground, thus; not only their question in Acts 1:6; but His answer that it was not theirs to know the Father's times or seasons concerning such things.

Thus, their preaching to Israel that should the nation repent, things could then move forward - as Prophesied.

They were still on Old Testament ground; the writer of Hebrews noting that that Pentecost had been a foretaste of their world to come.

Thus, the offer in Acts 3, of said world to come, conditioned as it was...on Israel's repentence.

Did Israel repent?

No.

Instead, things began to move towards the Lord's description in the latter half of Matthew 10, not only of what would take place instead of Israel's repentence; but before He would then step back into the picture to bring about that which was Prophesied.

All of that is Old Testament Ground.

Only a few of the seemingly countless many of Israel, having experienced only for a time, Israel's promised spiritual and material blessing; a foretaste of their world to come, which things the writer of Hebrews includes himself a part of.

Something happened that you, Interplanner, are simply unable to see due to your forty years in a perspective other than the obvious - said Old Testament Ground ending up, not giving way to the Kingdom the Law and the Prophets did say should come AFTER Israel's Prophesied wrath FIRST, only then followed AFTERWARDS by their equally Prophesied mercy.

Instead, we find an odd, new, unexpected but by God, an odd, one Apostle not only one too many to His already having hand picked the Twelve, one per Israelite Tribe, but an Apostle of their very oppressors - the Gentiles!

And this - BEFORE Israel's PROPHESIED Fulness!

Regrettably, you have solved for all that from within your forty year error.

There is no addressing you on these issues from the Scriptures.

You are no better off than those on TOL without all that financial expense you put yourself through.

Those who have arrived at much of your same off-base conclusions without your expense, given that the wisdom of men is ever the same, regardless of whether its name is Joe Average Joe, or Dr. Joe Average.

Post away, Interplanner.

Generate as many new threads as your heart desires.

Ask as many questions as you want.

Fact of the matter?

You don't really want to know this that has always been right in front of you all along.

You are too convinced the path you chose to your answers was...is...sound.

Reminds me of many of my old college professors.

Most of whom actually appeared to believe that the letters after their names, the obvious many books in their heads, and the acknowledgement of their own in same, meant they were actually learned in the things they spoke "about."

Then, again, thanks for the memory - boy did I used to give them hell :rotfl:

 

[Danoh]

It is incredulous that you would say that when the material about the DofJ has been used in church history to stop destructive skeptics and unbelief in its tracks.

It is extremely agitating to me that people like Danoh not only deny this kind of significance, but deny the impact of church history toward that significance.

I will be using the same in my next novel. Or trying.

You meant in your next post, of course :chuckle:

 

[northwye]

In the First century the multitude in physical, or Old Covenant, Israel followed the religion of the Pharisees.

"Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." Isaiah 28: 15-18

But - "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16

Isaiah 29: 16 is pointing toward Jeremiah 18: 1-6, "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

God was to remake Old Covenant Israel - in and by Christ Jesus. He remade Israel by use of his remnant.

But - "The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22.For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness." Isaiah 10: 21-22

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

Those caught up in the belief that Old Covenant Israel still exists because God still holds up the physical bloodline from Abraham may not understand what Paul is saying in Romans 11: 1-5. Romans 11: 1-2 - "God hath not cast away his people" - cannot be pulled out of Romans 11: 1-5 and made into a doctrine saying that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel is still chosen as the elect in the eyes of God. This is because the entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 is saying that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel was saved by grace. The multitude of Old Covenant Israel was not made the elect by grace, but in Romans 11: 17-20 those of Israel who rejected Christ were cut off.

God began to remake Israel in that remnant of Romans 11: 1-5. The church, from ekklesia, is the meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel remade or the Israel of God in Galatians 6: 16.

 

[tetelestai]

One problem I find with your above is that Luke 21 is spoken within Old Testament ground.

Further, at Pentecost; the Spirit declared unto Israel through Peter that Israel was in its' last days as Prophesied.

In other words, that also was still Old Testament ground, thus; not only their question in Acts 1:6; but His answer that it was not theirs to know the Father's times or seasons concerning such things.

Thus, their preaching to Israel that should the nation repent, things could then move forward - as Prophesied.

They were still on Old Testament ground; the writer of Hebrews noting that that Pentecost had been a foretaste of their world to come.

Thus, the offer in Acts 3, of said world to come, conditioned as it was...on Israel's repentence.

Did Israel repent?

No.

Instead, things began to move towards the Lord's description in the latter half of Matthew 10, not only of what would take place instead of Israel's repentence; but before He would then step back into the picture to bring about that which was Prophesied.

All of that is Old Testament Ground.

Only a few of the seemingly countless many of Israel, having experienced only for a time, Israel's promised spiritual and material blessing; a foretaste of their world to come, which things the writer of Hebrews includes himself a part of.

Something happened that you, Interplanner, are simply unable to see due to your forty years in a perspective other than the obvious - said Old Testament Ground ending up, not giving way to the Kingdom the Law and the Prophets did say should come AFTER Israel's Prophesied wrath FIRST, only then followed AFTERWARDS by their equally Prophesied mercy.

Instead, we find an odd, new, unexpected but by God, an odd, one Apostle not only one too many to His already having hand picked the Twelve, one per Israelite Tribe, but an Apostle of their very oppressors - the Gentiles!

And this - BEFORE Israel's PROPHESIED Fulness!

Regrettably, you have solved for all that from within your forty year error.

There is no addressing you on these issues from the Scriptures.

You are no better off than those on TOL without all that financial expense you put yourself through.

Those who have arrived at much of your same off-base conclusions without your expense, given that the wisdom of men is ever the same, regardless of whether its name is Joe Average Joe, or Dr. Joe Average.

Post away, Interplanner.

Generate as many new threads as your heart desires.

Ask as many questions as you want.

Fact of the matter?

You don't really want to know this that has always been right in front of you all along.

You are too convinced the path you chose to your answers was...is...sound.

Reminds me of many of my old college professors.

Most of whom actually appeared to believe that the letters after their names, the obvious many books in their heads, and the acknowledgement of their own in same, meant they were actually learned in the things they spoke "about."

Then, again, thanks for the memory - boy did I used to give them hell :rotfl:

Standard Dispensational propaganda.

Your little rant is filled with errors.

Why is it that not one Christian saw any of this stuff for 1,800 years? Why did no one think this stuff until John Nelson Darby in 1830?

Answer: It's not there. None of your claims are in the Bible. Darby invented all this, and you've been duped.

Wake up Danoh, put Darby's false teachings aside, and start believing what the Bible actually says.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9: 2-4

Hal Lindsey's literal interpretation of Revelation 9: 2-4 was that the locust-scorpions were Vietnam-era cobra helicopters.

Interpreting scripture by other scripture, as Isaiah 28: 13 says to do, leads back to other uses of locusts and scorpions in a metaphoric way.

In Joel 1: 4-7 locusts are not literal, but are metaphoric for those who have "laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree," that is, the false prophets are like locusts who eat up the substance, in this case the spiritual substance.

In Ezekiel 2: 3-6 God uses scorpions in a metaphoric way, in saying "And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4. For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5. And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house."
And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day."

We know that the scorpions in Ezekiel 2: 3-6 are not literal, because literal scorpions do not speak. Scorpions are those who follow false doctrines and practices.

Revelation 9: 16-19 says "And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt."

The literalists do not agree too well on what the "army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand" are. For example, Hal Lindsey in The Late Great Planet Earth says the army of horsemen are a huge Chinese army come to fight Israel, that is, the nation called Israel. Tim LaHaye says the huge army are not humans but are demon spirits.

But the huge army of horsemen is metaphor again and not literal.

Revelation 8: 18 says the horses have tails like serpents, a metaphor which is used in another New Testament text, Matthew 23: 33, where Christ calls the Pharisees a generation of vipers. The army of horsemen is not literal, but metaphoric for the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11.

A consistent literal interpretation of scripture denies the truth contained in the metaphors. And scripture which is not highly metaphoric is often more subtle and nuanced than the literalist mind can understand.

"For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Hebrews 5: 13-14

"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.: Hosea 12: 10

Informative,
except that the 200 million army is appointed to destroy the harlot which has so persecuted the unsealed of the churches in the 5th trumpet.

Jer 50:8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.
Jer 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

That is not the day of the Lord itself but it heralds His coming--

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

LA

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Unless you think all this is a joke, my question is also: don't you have other ways/passages that 'insure' that Israel will be in a triumphant battle, even if you 'lose' Lk 21 and/or Mt24A etc to what happened in the 6th decade there at the hands of two legions of Rome etc?

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is incredulous that you would say that when the material about the DofJ has been used in church history to stop destructive skeptics and unbelief in its tracks.

It is extremely agitating to me that people like Danoh not only deny this kind of significance, but deny the impact of church history toward that significance.

I will be using the same in my next novel. Or trying.

Do people generally understand your novels?
I never know what you're saying.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It is incredulous that you would say that when the material about the DofJ has been used in church history to stop destructive skeptics and unbelief in its tracks.

It is extremely agitating to me that people like Danoh not only deny this kind of significance, but deny the impact of church history toward that significance.

I will be using the same in my next novel. Or trying.

If I may be so bold, may I suggest your next "Novel" be entitled: "The Misunderstood One?" Make it an Autobiographical Novel. That would make for a great "NOVELTY."