Prophecy, the Torah, the Messiah

L

Lilstu

New member
now it will come about that
in the last days
the mountain of the
house of YHWH
will be established as
the chief of the mountains
and will be raised above the hills
and all the nations will stream to it
and many peoples will come and say
come let us go up to the mountain of YHWH
to the house of the GOD of Jacob
that He may teach us concerning His ways
and that we may walk in His paths
for the Torah will go forth from Zion
and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem
and He will judge between the nations
and will render decisions for many peoples
and they will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks
nation will not lift up sword against nation
and never again will they learn war
Isaiah 2:2-4

Has this scripture been fulfilled? I don't think so.
But notice that " the TORAH will go forth from Zion "
It doesn't sound like the Torah has been done
away with ; does it?

But what about all the Christians who think the Torah
has been written on their hearts?
Look around you!! Does this seem to be true?
Christians seem to be as bad a sinner as anyone else!
Can you dispute this?
If you read the scriptures in context, I think you
will see that this will be fulfilled after YHWH's
legitimate Messiah is raised up and put on the throne
of David
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Lilstu said:
Has this scripture been fulfilled? I don't think so.
But notice that " the TORAH will go forth from Zion "
It doesn't sound like the Torah has been done
away with ; does it?
Click to expand...

Jeremiah explained there will be a new covenant for Israel and Judah.
 
TweetyBird

TweetyBird

New member
Lilstu said:
now it will come about that
in the last days
the mountain of the
house of YHWH
will be established as
the chief of the mountains
and will be raised above the hills
and all the nations will stream to it
and many peoples will come and say
come let us go up to the mountain of YHWH
to the house of the GOD of Jacob
that He may teach us concerning His ways
and that we may walk in His paths
for the Torah will go forth from Zion
and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem
and He will judge between the nations
and will render decisions for many peoples
and they will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks
nation will not lift up sword against nation
and never again will they learn war
Isaiah 2:2-4

Has this scripture been fulfilled? I don't think so.
But notice that " the TORAH will go forth from Zion "
It doesn't sound like the Torah has been done
away with ; does it?

But what about all the Christians who think the Torah
has been written on their hearts?
Look around you!! Does this seem to be true?
Christians seem to be as bad a sinner as anyone else!
Can you dispute this?
If you read the scriptures in context, I think you
will see that this will be fulfilled after YHWH's
legitimate Messiah is raised up and put on the throne
of David
Click to expand...

Torah was already sent forth from Mt Sinai.

Torah is a whole lot of commandments - 613 of them - none of which can be written on anyone's heart.

The New Covenant was established, sent and received when Jesus shed His own blood. That is the covenant given to Israel, which they rejected, other than the remnant of Jews. If one is in Christ, and have been washed in His blood, they are in the new covenant - the mystery is that Gentiles were included, as prophesied, which is why Paul stated there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ - one NEW man.

The Law written on the heart is what Jesus taught - Love one another, Believe on Him. 1 John 3. That entire book is about love and belief on Christ - that is the Law of Christ. The Law of Moses has waxed old and can help no one.

1 John 3
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Who do you think the Mountain could be?
Who is the Jerusalem above?
What about the Water flowing from the Temple? Who is that Water? Who is that Temple?
Who do people come to when they seek the Lord? Who is the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe that one can come to the Father?
Who does the rain come upon? What might that be? Heb 6:7,8
Who is the Prince of Peace and the KIng of the World?
Do you not see the beautiful and amazing way this prophecy has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus?
 
TweetyBird

TweetyBird

New member
Lilstu said:
Read Jeremiah 31...IMO this has not been fulfilled
Click to expand...

The entire NT show that it has.

A covenant is ratified with blood. The old covenant with the blood of animals. The new covenant with the blood of Christ.

Breaking down the text:

A new covenant, NOT LIKE the one given at Mt Sinai.

* The new covenant law will be written on the heart. The Mosaic Law was already written on Israel's heart.

* God said this new covenant will make people His people. Israel was already the people of God, so He was speaking of something brand new.

* God said they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, in the new covenant. Jesus said it was fulfilled in Him. John 6: 45-48 - all who come to Him are taught of the Father - Jesus quoted Jer 31:34.

* God said He would forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more - this is fulfilled in Christ, by His shed blood. The atonement with the blood of animals, ceased.



Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 
L

Lilstu

New member
Jesus' blood was not shed in the temple. He was not sacrificed in Jerusalem. There was no Levitical Priests doing the sacrifice..only Roman soldiers
How do you explain this?
 
TweetyBird

TweetyBird

New member
Lilstu said:
Jesus' blood was not shed in the temple. He was not sacrificed in Jerusalem. There was no Levitical Priests doing the sacrifice..only Roman soldiers
How do you explain this?
Click to expand...

If you would read Hebrews 8 and 9 as I suggested, it would clarify things for you. Your statements makes me wonder if you are a Christian or not. If you do not believe in the sacrifice of Christ for sins, then we need to talk.

Heb 9
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 the Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
L

Lilstu

New member
TweetyBird said:
Torah was already sent forth from Mt Sinai.

Torah is a whole lot of commandments - 613 of them - none of which can be written on anyone's heart.

The New Covenant was established, sent and received when Jesus shed His own blood. That is the covenant given to Israel, which they rejected, other than the remnant of Jews. If one is in Christ, and have been washed in His blood, they are in the new covenant - the mystery is that Gentiles were included, as prophesied, which is why Paul stated there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ - one NEW man.

The Law written on the heart is what Jesus taught - Love one another, Believe on Him. 1 John 3. That entire book is about love and belief on Christ - that is the Law of Christ. The Law of Moses has waxed old and can help no one.

1 John 3
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Who do you think the Mountain could be?
Who is the Jerusalem above?
What about the Water flowing from the Temple? Who is that Water? Who is that Temple?
Who do people come to when they seek the Lord? Who is the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe that one can come to the Father?
Who does the rain come upon? What might that be? Heb 6:7,8
Who is the Prince of Peace and the KIng of the World?
Do you not see the beautiful and amazing way this prophecy has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus?
Click to expand...

Do you believe that God gave Israel a defective Torah?
Could you possibly believe that it could be in God's character to give Israel a Torah that didn't save?
Wouldn't that be fraudulent?....may it never be.
 
L

Lilstu

New member
TweetyBird said:
If you would read Hebrews 8 and 9 as I suggested, it would clarify things for you. Your statements makes me wonder if you are a Christian or not. If you do not believe in the sacrifice of Christ for sins, then we need to talk.

Heb 9
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 the Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Click to expand...

Do you often insult others by questioning their Christian credentials because they don't agree with you?
 
TweetyBird

TweetyBird

New member
Lilstu said:
Do you believe that God gave Israel a defective Torah?
Could you possibly believe that it could be in God's character to give Israel a Torah that didn't save?
Wouldn't that be fraudulent?....may it never be.
Click to expand...

Before Moses finished writing down all the commandments that God gave to Israel through Moses, God told Him that Israel would rebel against Him.

Torah was good because it was given to Israel for a time, to test them and try them - but it was temporary. There was no full and complete forgiveness of sins. The NT clearly shows the faults of Torah and why the new covenant is better with better promises and why the old covenant aka Mosaic Law passed away/vanished.

Deut 31
16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. 19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. 20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

22 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel. 23 And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee.

24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. 29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.
 
TweetyBird

TweetyBird

New member
Lilstu said:
Jesus' blood was not shed in the temple. He was not sacrificed in Jerusalem. There was no Levitical Priests doing the sacrifice..only Roman soldiers
How do you explain this?
Click to expand...

I wanted to revisit your questions on this.

In the Mosaic Law, it was forbidden for a man to be put to death for the sins of others. It was unheard of. The Mosaic Law was a shadow of the atonement, not an actual literal expression of how Jesus would fulfill it. The NT contains texts that show exactly how His death fulfills this OT shadow, verse by verse.

On Yom Kippur, the sins of the Israel were placed upon a goat and sent outside the gate, so too, Jesus was brought outside the gate and bore our sins, being crucified on Calvary.

I actually love how God provided heathen gentiles to carry out His plan of salvation with their own pagan system of execution. Only God would come with something like that, another shadow of the inclusion of Gentiles into His New Covenant - taking part in the shedding of His own blood. The mind and plans of God are truly amazing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top