Theology Club: Pre-trib believers

[Tambora]

WHY do you believe that pre-trib can be the only truth?

Just saying you like one view above another is not an argument.

So I started this thread so that pre-trib believers can give reason that their view is the only correct one.
(An argument for another view can be done in another thread.)



QUESTION

From scripture, how can we determine how much of a gap (or if there is a gap) there is between the rapture and the starting of the trib?
Does the trib happen immediately after the rapture or is there an unspecified amount of time between the rapture and the trib?


QUESTION

From scripture, do we (the raptured) come with Christ to earth?

 

[Tambora]

POINT that needs more substantive support

I've heard it said that the mystery was hid in plain sight.
Meaning that it was in the OT prophets, but wasn't recognized.
That's a pretty tricky statement, and I don't think it solves anything.
There were many things prophesied that many did not recognize at the time of Jesus.
Jesus as the Messiah being one of them.
But even if they did not recognize it, it was still prophesied about.

So we need to establish if the mystery was indeed spoken of by the prophets of old, or if the mystery was indeed a mystery (completely hid from the prophets).

 

[Tambora]

QUESTION


Can the mystery program and the kingdom program coincide at any time?
(ie. be going on at the same time or overlap each other)
Or I should ask, Do the mystery program and the kingdom program coincide at any time?

I ask because if they cannot coincide, then pre-trib is a must because the trib and millennium are prophesy and therefore could not include the mystery.
The mystery would have to be concluded before the prophesy kick-starts again.

This is another area I think we need to answer in a substantive way to see which view has the most support.

But if we conclude that the mystery and prophesy cannot coincide, then we will have to rethink the notion that the mystery and the prophesy were going on (or overlapping) at the same time during Paul and the 12.
In other words, if they coincide during the time of Paul and the 12, then we have no support for them NOT being able to coincide at any future time.

So, did they really coincide during the time of Paul and the 12, or did one end before the other began?
Had the prophesy program of Israel stopped by the time Paul was saved and the mystery began then?
Or to put another way, Did God put Israel's program on hold BEFORE Paul was saved?
Did Israel's fall happen BEFORE Paul was saved?

 

[steko]

WHY do you believe that pre-trib can be the only truth?]/QUOTE]

I don't. I believe it is the most likely based on what I gather from Scripture.

And Paul did say, "So comfort one another with these words."

Just saying you like one view above another is not an argument.

True.

So I started this thread so that pre-trib believers can give reason that their view is the only correct one.
(An argument for another view can be done in another thread.)

Thank you for isolating this thread!

QUESTION

From scripture, how can we determine how much of a gap (or if there is a gap) there is between the rapture and the starting of the trib?

I don't know if there is a gap, but it seems that the catching away would correspond to the 'fullness of the gentiles' in Ro 11 and the prophetic clock resuming its' count concerning the 70th week.

Paul changes subjects from 'the catching away' of the BOC in 1Thess 4 to 'the times and seasons' pertaining to the Kingdom being restored to Israel in 1Thess 5:1.

Does the trib happen immediately after the rapture or is there an unspecified amount of time between the rapture and the trib?

I don't know. I don't know that this can be known at this point.

QUESTION

From scripture, do we (the raptured) come with Christ to earth?

1Thess 4 says that at the catching away of the BOC that we will forever be with the Lord. I don't think that Paul meant that in the same way that we are with the Lord presently or there would be no point in him even mentioned it.
If Israel are 'the earthly people' and the BOC are 'the heavenly people' and this is a hard and fixed rule then obviously there will be a separation. But, I don't know how to reconcile 'forever being with the Lord'.

I couldn't go so far as to say that the BOC will inherit the land promised to Abraham and his descendants, because that would be the same as saying there is no true distinction between Israel and the BOC. From what I see, I couldn't concede that.

Just some musings to get things started.

Some Dispies believe that the BOC will travel with the Lord from heaven to earth and back during the Mill. I don't like to get too dogmatic on this point. It's interesting to discuss.

 

[Tambora]

WHY do you believe that pre-trib can be the only truth?

I don't. I believe it is the most likely based on what I gather from Scripture.

I'm the same, as far as sitting on the fence about some things.
The fence post may be leaning more to one side than the other, but still not quite enough to make me fall to one side or the other completely.

I thought this would be a good time that some of us could dig a little deeper into some of the concerns with some actual sound reasoning instead of being stagnant and just stop digging when a challenge arises to our view.

Some Dispies believe that the BOC will travel with the Lord from heaven to earth and back during the Mill. I don't like to get too dogmatic on this point. It's interesting to discuss.

Good a place as any to start!

So let's take a look at whom scripture says comes with Jesus at His 2nd coming.


Zechariah 14:5 KJV
(5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV
(13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


Jude 1:14 KJV
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Matthew 16:27 KJV
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


2 Thessalonians 1:7 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,




Now all we have to do is figure out if saints and angels are speaking of the same type of entities, or if saints and angels are different types of entities.

 

[patrick jane]

I think angels and saints are different -

 

[Tambora]

I think angels and saints are different -

Well, thanks, but that's not enough of an argument for or against.
Give us your reasoning as to why you believe that way.
It would be very helpful.

Thanks.

 

[steko]

I'm the same, as far as sitting on the fence about some things.
The fence post may be leaning more to one side than the other, but still not quite enough to make me fall to one side or the other completely.

AS far as the overall scenario of premill and pretrib, I'm convinced enough that I've been teaching it in assemblies, homegroups, one on one and jail ministry for 35+ years.
However, when time allows I do present the contrast of opposing views and say that "Considering all the facts, the view that I hold is most consistent with Scripture and being fallible I'm bound to be wrong about some point or points".

I thought this would be a good time that some of us could dig a little deeper into some of the concerns with some actual sound reasoning instead of being stagnant and just stop digging when a challenge arises to our view.

Good a place as any to start!

So let's take a look at whom scripture says comes with Jesus at His 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:5 KJV
(5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

saints- qadosh- holy ones
LXX- hagioi- same

non specific as to redeemed saints or heavenly host/angels

1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV
(13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


Jude 1:14 KJV
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

hagios/hagioi- same

1 Thessalonians 3:13 could go with:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

...and be referring to the redeemed as they return as Spirits with the Lord to be reunited with their physical resurrected bodies.

Matthew 16:27 KJV
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

I believe that this is specific to Israel and corresponds to the gathering of scattered Israel by angels from the nations according to prophecy:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

That sounds like Angelic hosts of heaven coming with 'the Lord of Hosts'. 'mighty'

Now all we have to do is figure out if saints and angels are speaking of the same type of entities, or if saints and angels are different types of entities.

Yep, that's all we have to do! :rapture:

 

[patrick jane]

Well, thanks, but that's not enough of an argument for or against.
Give us your reasoning as to why you believe that way.
It would be very helpful.

Thanks.

Saints are or were human, we are saints. Angels are spirit beings -

Zechariah 14:5 KJV - Psalm 89:5, 7 - Job 5:1 KJV - Matthew 25:31 KJV - Daniel 4:13 KJV - Daniel 8:13 KJV -

 

[Tambora]

Saints are or were human, we are saints. Angels are spirit beings -

Zechariah 14:5 KJV - Psalm 89:5, 7 - Job 5:1 KJV - Matthew 25:31 KJV - Daniel 4:13 KJV - Daniel 8:13 KJV -

Now we're cooking!


Consider:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​

Is this talking about the rapture (maybe God bringing them with Christ to heaven), or is it about Christ bringing them to earth with Him?
How can we determine which it is referring to, without just guessing about it?
Well, I suppose we could guess, but still need to have a reason why we guessed that way instead of the other way.

 

[Danoh]

Angels as saints...

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

________________

Men as saints...

Psalms 148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

________

Men as angels...

Galatians 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

___________

"Saints" and sinning "saints..."

1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite. 21:16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.

 

[steko]

Saints are or were human, we are saints. Angels are spirit beings -

Zechariah 14:5 KJV - Psalm 89:5, 7 - Job 5:1 KJV - Matthew 25:31 KJV - Daniel 4:13 KJV - Daniel 8:13 KJV -

Saints are creatures that are 'set apart'.
They can be created angels or created man.

Inanimate objects such as instruments in the Tabernacle are also called holy/qadosh/set apart.

Ground is called 'holy/qadosh/set apart as in Ex 3 and again in Joshua.

 

[Danoh]

Yep - sanctified (saint - i - fied), or saint, or holy, or called, called to be, or set apart unto - are all related: a person, place or thing set apart and or created unto that for which it and or them have been set apart unto.

As in...

1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

[Tambora]

I know it's early, and we are just getting started with this thread.

While the thread is going on, keep a mental record of how much of our answers are of an ambiguous nature rather than a conclusive nature.
This will be so you can ask yourself just why it is that you proclaim pre-trib so strongly.

 

[Danoh]

Some important studies on PreTrib myths - by Mid-Acts Historian: Bryan Ross.

Each link contains a video presentation; and often, a pdf of his notes; a powerpoint of his illustrations; and sometimes additional pdfs as additional resources...

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2012/01/lesson-51-darby-on-trial-debunking.html?m=1

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2012/01/lesson-52-darby-on-trial-debunking.html?m=1

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2012/01/lesson-53-darby-on-trial-debunking.html?m=1

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2012/01/lesson-54-darbys-dispensational-system.html?m=1

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2012/02/lesson-55-darbys-dispensational-system.html?m=1

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2012/02/lesson-56-darbys-dispensational-system.html?m=1

 

[steko]

Beware the conflagaration! :noid:

 

[intojoy]

Scripture does not say there is a gap.

We do return with Messiah at the second coming.

Musterion: a technical term a very specific term used by Paul that meant the following: a totally new revelation in the New Testament found nowhere in the Old Testament. In other words the Musterion taught by Paul had zero references in the Hebrew prophets.

The kingdom of God is multifaceted. The musterion of the kingdom was that it would be in mystery form and that the church would be part of it during this age.

This time: And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (*Matthew‬ *13‬:*11‬ ASV)



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[Tambora]

Scripture does not say there is a gap.

We do return with Messiah at the second coming.

Musterion: a technical term a very specific term used by Paul that meant the following: a totally new revelation in the New Testament found nowhere in the Old Testament. In other words the Musterion taught by Paul had zero references in the Hebrew prophets.

The kingdom of God is multifaceted. The musterion of the kingdom was that it would be in mystery form and that the church would be part of it during this age.

This time: And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (*Matthew‬ *13‬:*11‬ ASV)



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Are you a pre-trib believer?

 

[intojoy]

Are you a pre-trib believer?

Yes


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[Tambora]

Yes

Sweet.