ECT NT Eschatology #5: Acts 26 shapes Israel's outcome

[Interplanner]

Paul could have saved himself a lot of trouble by saying that there was another round for Israel as such in Acts 26. But he didn't. He couldn't. Instead he says that the hope of Israel is already fulfilled in the resurrection, which is what he said in 13's sermon. And he's still trying to get them to become missionaries for this message of forgiveness in Christ.

Most unusual is that he says he is not saying anything beyond what Moses and the Prophets said would happen--the suffering of Christ and the glory to follow. There is nothing about a future land or events or the re-use of the worship system. We also should not go beyond that, and let the Spirit use its power to affect people.

This is the 5th basic piece of how the apostles 'did' eschatology. The previous one was on Isaiah's declaring that the promises to David were given to Christ, in both Acts 13, and even in the first sermon of the apostles, by Peter, 2:31.

 

[Danoh]

Paul could have saved himself a lot of trouble by saying that there was another round for Israel as such in Acts 26. But he didn't. He couldn't.

How do you know all he said in that Acts 26 setting was only what Luke related. Look at what little Luke relates Paul preached in Acts 17, and yet Paul writes eight chapters - 1 and 2 Thess. - reminding them of all he had shared with them, and the implication of those eight chapters is that he'd shared way more with them then he reminds them of in them.

You blowhard.

 

[Interplanner]

Because Acts 26 contains transcript, not just talking about it 2nd hand.

Why don't you just read and accept it, and stop trying to "find" books between the lines--about David's promises, about the grammar of Gal 2, about "not going beyond" the suffering and resurrection of Christ?

It does not take great training to realize that Paul didn't say a peep about a future for Israel right when it would really have helped. He says the thing they are hoping for in their ceremonial worship is now here.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is nothing about a future land or events or the re-use of the worship system. We also should not go beyond that, and let the Spirit use its power to affect people.

Here is a promise regarding the land which the LORD promised to David and that promise has not yet been fulfilled:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).​

"And not pluck them up"! The prophet Amos says the same thing:

"And I will bring again the captivity of my people ...And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).​

Therefore we can understand that the Lord has made promises to David in respect to the promised land that have not yet been fulfilled. There has never been a time when the children of Israel have been brought back to the promised land and have not "been pulled up out of their land" (unless that is being fulfilled now).

Not only that, but the Lord said that He would fulfill the promises which He made to David and will not "alter" those promises:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Since the preterists have no place for the fulfillment of this promise in their eschatology they merely say that the LORD did alter his promises. Therefore, according to their ideas, the LORD promised that He would not alter the promises He made to David, He did alter them and therefore He lied to David:

 

[tetelestai]

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

Jerry, after the Jews returned to Jerusalem from Babylonian captivity, did they stay there forever?

Also, the topic of the thread is about how not one NT writer even hinted that in the future Jews will return to certain land in the Middle East.

As expected, you quoted verses from the OT to make your case. That's because there aren't any in the NT that support your case.

Neither Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, John, Paul, nor any other NT writer said anything about Jews one day returning back to land in the Middle East.

Dispensationalism is built on OT prophecies that have already been fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

 

[Interplanner]

It's more dramatic than Tet just said. Paul could have saved his neck in Acts 26. Just think through the implications. If D'ism had any truth at all--if Paul taught it, Acts 26 would not have ended as it did! It is total contrivance and fantasy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, after the Jews returned to Jerusalem from Babylonian captivity, did they stay there forever?

No!

Jerusalem was destroyed in the second Jewish revolt (A.D. 132-135) and the Jews were excluded from Jerusalem upon penalty of death.

 

[tetelestai]

No!

In the verses you provided from Sam, Jer, and Amos, they all say that God would not remove them from their land.

All three verses were written before the exiles returned from Babylon circa 539BC

You want us to believe that the Jews returned to the Promised Land and lived there for over 600 years after Babylon, and then God removed them, but that had nothing to do with the prophecies from the verses you gave.

You want us to believe that all the prophecies skipped right over the Jews who lived there for over 600 years and rejected Christ Jesus.

Don't you realize how stupid that sounds?

Not to mention, you can't provide one verse in the NT that says one day the Jews will return to the Promised Land.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You want us to believe that the Jews returned to the Promised Land and lived there for over 600 years after Babylon, and then God removed them, but that had nothing to do with the prophecies from the verses you gave.

Use your brain for a change!

According to you when they lived in the promised land and then they were moved fulfilled this prophecy:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

However, this prophecy speaks of them moving no more. You think that a time when they were moved fulfills 2 Samuel 7:8.

How stupid can you be?

Don't you realize how stupid that sounds?

What is stupid is your idea that even though Israel moved out of the land the promise of the LORD found at 2 Samuel 7:10 were fulfilled then.

Besides that, it is obvious that the LORD promised in "bold"here has never yet been fulfilled:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

When was there ever a time when the children of Israel had moved back to the promised land and had moved no more and then they were no longer afflicted by the children of wickedness?

 

[tetelestai]

Use your brain for a change!

Says the Darby follower.

According to you when they lived in the promised land and then they were moved fulfilled this prophecy:

Using your logic, the Jews could return to the Promised Land, live there over 500 years, and be removed an infinite amount of times. You are claiming it happened once so far, and you're still counting.

The prophecy was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. He was the fulfillment.

What was the return from Babylon? Just some teaser for a future return?

How many more temples are going to be rebuilt, destroyed, rebuilt and then destroyed again?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Using your logic, the Jews could return to the Promised Land, live there over 500 years, and be removed an infinite amount of times. You are claiming it happened once so far, and you're still counting.

I am saying that it never happened so the fulfillment of this promise remains in the future:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

The prophecy was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. He was the fulfillment.

The LORD said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

According to you the LORD altered the promises which He made to David so your theology teaches that the LORD lied to David.

But you couldn't care less because your ego will not allow you to admit that the silly ideas of preterism are in error.

 

[tetelestai]

I am saying that it never happened so the fulfillment of this promise remains in the future:

If so, why didn't Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude, or any other NT writer say so?

There's not even any mention of it from different people in the NT about it (i.e. Timothy, Barnabas, etc.)

Don't you think at least one person in the NT would have mentioned it?

Your entire Dispensationalism is built around something not found in the NT.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If so, why didn't Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude, or any other NT writer say so?

Those who wrote the epistles didn't really think that anybody would be foolish enough to think that this prophecy was already fulfilled:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

Since you are always bringing up the history of the Israelites tell us when this promise was actually fulfilled.

I need a good laugh.

 

[tetelestai]

Those who wrote the epistles didn't really think that anybody would be foolish enough to think that this prophecy was already fulfilled:

That's your answer?

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

Since you are always bringing up the history of the Israelites tell us when this promise was actually fulfilled.

It was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

I need a good laugh.

If so, keep reading books written by men who went to Dallas Theological Seminary.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Never happened yet---

Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.


Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

The NT idea of fulfillment is not that there is a punchlist that has to be filled out. It is a question of learning what took place in Christ.

 

[Interplanner]

We should not go beyond what is written in Moses and the Prophets: that Christ would suffer and be raised again in glory. There's your list. The rest doesn't matter and it has nothing about a distant future Israel.

 

[tetelestai]

Never happened yet---

Nope, you're wrong.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

All you are doing is "altering" the promises which the LORD made to David despite the fact that He said He would do no such thing:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

Since the Lord will not alter the promises he made to David then this promise will be fulfilled in the future:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

Since you consider yourself on expert of the Israelites tell me when the children of Israel were brought back to the land and they moved no more and the children of wickedness afflicted them no more.

When?

 

[Interplanner]

that's not what you need to answer Jerry. You need to answer: how did Peter and Paul "do" the promises to David in Acts 2 and 13?