ECT No one was "looking forward to the cross"

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musterion

musterion

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[Title borrowed from a mid-Acts blog]

If anyone during the Lord's time on earth would have anticipated His death, burial and resurrection for forgiveness and justification of the world, the disciples would have been the ones.

But what does God tell us?

Mark 9:30-32 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it. For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke 9:44-45 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
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So if you have been taught that people before Calvary were "looking forward to the cross" as their Good News, you have been fooled into placing stupid, lying human traditions that someone handed to you above the revealed Word of God. However, you can always repent [change your mind] about that, and you should do so immediately.

But if you read the above Scripture and still insist that people back then were somehow "looking forward to the cross" as their Good News, you are a literal pharisee because you hate God's Word and love the stupid lies of human traditions (Mark 7:13), which also reveals you to be a stiff-necked stupid liar yourself.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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Interplanner said:
The lamb in Judaism is put to death. They knew that.
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In the Doctrinal Statement of Dallas Theological Seminary we read this:

"We believe that it has always been true that 'without faith it is impossible to please' God (Heb. 11:6), and that the principle of faith was prevalent in the lives of all the Old Testament saints...it is evident that they did not comprehend as we do that the sacrifices depicted the person and work of Christ. We believe also that they did not understand the redemptive significance of the prophecies or types concerning the sufferings of Christ (1 Pet. 1:10-12)" [emphasis added] (Dallas Theological Seminary, Full Doctrinal Statement, "Article V--The Dispensations").​

Charles C. Ryrie writes thefollowing on the same subject:

"It cannot be implied that the Israelite understood what the final sacrifice was. For if he had sufficent insight, to the extent of seeing and believing on the finished work of Christ, then he would not have had to offer the sacrifices annually, for he would have rested confidently in what he saw in the prefiguration. If the sacrifices had given a clear foreview of Christ, the offerer would have understood the truth of a completed atonement and would not have any consciousness of sins every year. But since the Scriptures say that he did have a consciousness of sins (Heb.10:2), he must not have seen very clearly 'the same promise, the same Saviour, the same condition, and the same salvation' as the believers see today" (Ryrie, Dispensationalism, [Moody Press, 1995], p.119).​
 
I

Interplanner

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And what does 'whatever God promised to the fathers is fulfilled in the resurrection' mean in plain language? Acts 13:32,33.

Or, David said he knew that God would place a descedant on his (Davids) throne; Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave (quote). Acts 2:30-31. What is the plain language of that?

Or, the words of the prophets are in agreement with God taking people from among the nations: After this I will return and rebuild Davids fallen tent..." Acts 15:15. That's the plain language.

(PS now you can tell Danoh I ACTUALLY quoted a verse, yay!)
 
Nick M

Nick M

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32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

The Holy Spirit did not allow them to know what was going on. So when they preached the Kingdom, they preached something else.

Why?


1 Corinthians 2

8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


That is about the only thing wrong in Mel Gibson's Passion. He showed Satan in great agony at the crucifixion. No, he was in great delight. He thought he had killed the Son of David.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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Interplanner said:
Actually what you just did there is typical mindless 2P2P interp. You have to back up and ask many other questions. It does not just come down to the fact that those verses are there at that time. People have different ways of saying that they deny that something exists. 'I don't know what you are talking about it' is certainly one of them.

Then there is also the question of death vs death on a cross. Perhaps they would have been content with death by a sword or a zealot's sicari (curved concealed dagger). But never on a Roman cross. Were they confounded by a cross itself, even though they accepted death?

The lamb in Judaism is put to death. They knew that.

He told them in Jn 1 that if they destroyed his temple (his body), he would raise it in 3 days. No one listening would have thought of a building.

There is no explanation for the outburst of Peter at the confession without his knowing of death before this. His reaction is the kind where he knows but doesn't want it to happen.

They knew from many OT passages that 'Christ HAD to suffer' as Paul summarized in Acts 17.

To remove the 'they didn't know what he meant' passages from the overall context of the unfolding story is actually more like the literalism of the Pharisees than anything else.
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Unbelief + rationalization. Pitiful.
 
musterion

musterion

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My perception of 2P2P is that IT is man-made.
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We can either prove it verbatim from the revelations given through Paul, or by logical necessity derived from those revelations, used as a lens through which to view prior revelation. If you opened your closed mind to trying that honestly, just once, you MIGHT see something that surprised you.
 
I

Interplanner

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Nick M said:
32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

The Holy Spirit did not allow them to know what was going on. So when they preached the Kingdom, they preached something else.

Why?


1 Corinthians 2

8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


That is about the only thing wrong in Mel Gibson's Passion. He showed Satan in great agony at the crucifixion. No, he was in great delight. He thought he had killed the Son of David.
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If they had 'understood' it they prob would have tried to prevent it.

If the princes of this age had not crucified him, others would have; the death still had to take place. God had control, like he did of Pharoah.
 
musterion

musterion

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Interplanner said:
If they had 'understood' it they prob would have tried to prevent it.

If the princes of this age had not crucified him, others would have
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Who else could have done it, fool?

You treat the Bible like comic book nerds arguing over whether movies are canonical. You actually enjoy it because you don't really believe any of it matters, so it's fun.

Have you NO reverence for THE WORD OF GOD HIMSELF?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
musterion said:
When were Israel's lost years restored, IP, since it had to have already happened?
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Ever since the Spirit was poured out as the prophecies had said, in and among those who believed the Gospel.

You have to understand "in Christ" first; otherwise nothing makes sense. The same is true (stated) in 2 Cor 5 about being in Christ and how Paul then understood about his past.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
musterion said:
Who else could have done it, fool?

You treat the Bible like comic book nerds arguing over whether movies are canonical. You actually enjoy it because you don't really believe any of it matters, so it's fun.

Have you NO reverence for THE WORD OF GOD HIMSELF?
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Other people in the picture--zealots, Judaizers, other Pharisee leaders who did not like him. He had a few enemies you know.

As long as you call people fools, you probably are not Christ's. Mt 5:22. Oh, I forgot: those are verses for Jews, oh.
 
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