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So says the vegetable.
Spitfire
New member
I don't know many "weak" atheists, there's always some reason why God needs not to exist, even among those who claim to have nothing against religious belief (though even those still slip up and fly their true colors now and then.)
Booh Radish! I thank you are stinking some, not funie an untrue also! :IA:
I think it's just the opposite. Most atheists I know (including myself) are "weak" atheists. We don't know of any gods to believe in, but the truth value (whatever it is) of the statement "god exists" is the same regardless what we - or you - think. Our reasons are irrelevant.
On the other hand, I have a lot against religious belief. I see it as a major cause of suffering throughout the world.
Hm, well, if a "nationalist" is a kind of fascist, then maybe an "internationalist" unites fascists all over the world?
nicholsmom
New member
I would guess, based on the anarchy, that by "internationalist" this newb means to deny the rights of sovereignty to any governments, choosing rather to see the world in terms of rather loose groupings of people based solely upon location rather than like-mindedness.
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The Berean
Well-known member
Please show me how me believing that Jesus Christ is the only way to etnernal life causes suffering in the world? :idunno:
Kafir's got you there, Berean...if it wasn't for religion we'd all be on easy street about now. Just look what the peace loving people of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics accomplished in the name of the brotherhood of man in its brief, shinning moment...
:think:
lain:...what?
:think:
lain:...what?In no case that I'm aware of, including Stalin and later Soviet leaders, has their atheism been a cause of their behavior. Nobody goes around saying "I don't believe in God, therefore I will torture this or that ethnic group." That just doesn't make any sense.
On the other hand, religious leaders do this all the time. The Catholic Church did it during the Inquisition. Muslims are doing it today. 20th century missionaries have been known to withhold food and supplies from people who didn't "turn to Jesus". Millions of people are dying around the world from diseases or starvation because the Church discourages teaching about proper use of contraceptives, and in fact lies about it, because of their religious beliefs.
The Berean
Well-known member
A makes as much sense as, "I believe in God, therefore I will torture this or that ethnic group."
Please cite some sources. :think:
What people can't learn about contraceptives on their own? They can only get information from "the Church"? Millions of people are dying because they have corrupt and greedy governments that take much of the food donated and sell it. Much of this food comes from "the Church".
The Berean
Well-known member
You mean like help your fellow man, feed the poor, teach inner-city kids math and science, build homes in Mexico, teach English in Japan, help the homeless get jobs, etc...
That was less about religion and more about wealth and power. All powerful nations in history have have acted similarly. Was Genghis Khan a Christian? How about Alexander the Great? Xerxes I? The various Chinese Dynasties?
Missionaries working with the Plains Indian tribes in the early 1900s viewed the Sun Dance (portrayed in the movie A Man Called Horse) as a sadistic heathen practice and withheld rations for anyone who participated. Since they had the support of the federal government they could even have someone jailed for a second offense.
But what I had in mind was a more recent story in South Asia, which I read in an (asian) Indian newspaper, in which missionaries were withholding supplies from Hindu tsunami victims unless they converted. Unfortunately the link is stale and I can't find it, so I retract my statement for now.
"When the missionaries came to Africa
they had the Bible and we had the land.
They said "Let us pray."
We closed our eyes.
When we opened them
we had the Bible and they had the land."
Bishop Desmond Tutu
I think this is going to be a time-consuming debate involving a fair amount of research, so I'll have to continue it next week when I'm back home from my training class. Also, maybe this thread be moved to somewhere more appropriate for such discussions.
But what I had in mind was a more recent story in South Asia, which I read in an (asian) Indian newspaper, in which missionaries were withholding supplies from Hindu tsunami victims unless they converted. Unfortunately the link is stale and I can't find it, so I retract my statement for now.
"When the missionaries came to Africa
they had the Bible and we had the land.
They said "Let us pray."
We closed our eyes.
When we opened them
we had the Bible and they had the land."
Bishop Desmond Tutu
I think this is going to be a time-consuming debate involving a fair amount of research, so I'll have to continue it next week when I'm back home from my training class. Also, maybe this thread be moved to somewhere more appropriate for such discussions.
assuranceagent
New member
Not bad for a lefty.
:rotfl: comedy gold. :first:
Rather, it is the absence of God and the belief that there exists no higher authority than man and no justice save that defined by the powerful that fostered Stalin's depravity and readied Pol Pot's killing fields. Is it the inevitable byproduct of Atheistic thought? No more so than it is a part and parcel of Theist morality.
In the name of God/in the name of the state, it's all about power and corruption and not about principles and the people who suffer for or from them, depending on your perspective. Your difficulty is that you're blinded to one side of that equation. The problem isn't the church or the state. The problem is man. Remove the state or religion and you fool yourself if you believe you make a significant contribution to world peace or the alleviation of suffering.
Really? Who were they? Do you mean to demonstrate a rule or merely pose an as yet unsupported exception and imply the rule to suit your purpose? And have you any idea of the number of people assisted and supported by Protestant and Catholic relief?
Do you mean the Catholic Church or are you attacking the Hindus now? In any event you have an interestingly selective view of world history and geopolitical reality.
CabinetMaker...read it again, slowly. Now then, if you aren't laughing or at least shaking your head, call a friend.
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