ECT Modern Times and the evacuation from history by D'ism

[Interplanner]

Dispensationalism is so unnaturally attached to the Bible that NT background is virtually lost. Here is a bit of history as to why this is so.

Dispensationalism is a system that is full of factors and contingencies completely outside of the apostles thinking and teaching, such as restoring a theocratic state to Israel. Those factors are unnaturally glommed-on to a few texts, mainly Mt 23's 'until you sing blessed is he who comes...' and Rom 11's 'all Israel saved.' They believe this is 'rightly dividing' the Bible, which is bad English for 'rightly handling' the Bible in light of ignorant people who want to scrap over terms and words from the Law instead of using the Bible to administer church leaders and people effectively, I Tim 2.

D'ism started in the 1800s when there was a flourish of off-base cults with major delusions at the center. They drifted way off the center of the Bible.

The odd thing about this is that one pastor who stuck with the historical view (no glommed-on 2P2P type theories) dealt a massive blow to the leading atheist writer of the day (I'm referring to the English Pastor Holford's ministry vs Thomas Payne's attempt to end all religion). This was early 1800, and it is fascinating to note what happens next: uniformitarianism AND several bizarre cults start up, including D'ism, but none of them maintain the grip on history and the solid connection between the NT and the destruction of Israel that is all through it.

Which makes tragic sense: once you cut the NT loose from that, all the awful beliefs of those systems take over. Futurism did it by thousands of reps that Mt 24A was about events X000 years in the future, and by cultivating the 19th century resurgence of Judaism's interest in its own trinity--God / torah / land in the 1800s. In a cultic way, and out of nowwhere, there was now a "Christian" and even "evangelical" movement that had almost no understanding of NT history or how the NT used the OT to maximize the accomplishment of Christ. Which means they read the OT the EXACT SAME WAY AS THE RESURGENT JUDAISM!!!

D'ism has had no effect on the modern world that would subvert it from uniformitarianism; it simply burps up a 'prediction' about once a decade, which comes and goes, and the public sneers.

 

[DAN P]

Dispensationalism is so unnaturally attached to the Bible that NT background is virtually lost. Here is a bit of history as to why this is so.

Dispensationalism is a system that is full of factors and contingencies completely outside of the apostles thinking and teaching, such as restoring a theocratic state to Israel. Those factors are unnaturally glommed-on to a few texts, mainly Mt 23's 'until you sing blessed is he who comes...' and Rom 11's 'all Israel saved.' They believe this is 'rightly dividing' the Bible, which is bad English for 'rightly handling' the Bible in light of ignorant people who want to scrap over terms and words from the Law instead of using the Bible to administer church leaders and people effectively, I Tim 2.

D'ism started in the 1800s when there was a flourish of off-base cults with major delusions at the center. They drifted way off the center of the Bible.

The odd thing about this is that one pastor who stuck with the historical view (no glommed-on 2P2P type theories) dealt a massive blow to the leading atheist writer of the day (I'm referring to the English Pastor Holford's ministry vs Thomas Payne's attempt to end all religion). This was early 1800, and it is fascinating to note what happens next: uniformitarianism AND several bizarre cults start up, including D'ism, but none of them maintain the grip on history and the solid connection between the NT and the destruction of Israel that is all through it.

Which makes tragic sense: once you cut the NT loose from that, all the awful beliefs of those systems take over. Futurism did it by thousands of reps that Mt 24A was about events X000 years in the future, and by cultivating the 19th century resurgence of Judaism's interest in its own trinity--God / torah / land in the 1800s. In a cultic way, and out of nowwhere, there was now a "Christian" and even "evangelical" movement that had almost no understanding of NT history or how the NT used the OT to maximize the accomplishment of Christ. Which means they read the OT the EXACT SAME WAY AS THE RESURGENT JUDAISM!!!

D'ism has had no effect on the modern world that would subvert it from uniformitarianism; it simply burps up a 'prediction' about once a decade, which comes and goes, and the public sneers.

Hi and DISPENSATIONALISM is here to stay and did not start in the 1800 BUT start by the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:4 and in 2 Tin 1:9 and than COMFIRED by the Holy Spirit as it caused Paul , to be saved by Grace in Gal 1:15 !!

People like you have a hard time explaining AWAY Acts 9:6 and How Paul was saved and where the DISPENSATION of Grace began !!

You never can explain the Milleinnal Kingdom in ZECH 14:9-21 and so many other verse , like Col 1:25-26 , Eph 3:9 and you are all ACCURSED by Gal 1:7 and 8 and by Gal 5;4 !!

Nor can you prove how Paul was SAVED in Acts 9:6 NOR orove how you were SAVED , CAN YOU ??

I just LOVE having you here , so do not LEAVE !!

dan p

 

[Interplanner]

The school of thought called D'ism is not the same as the eras or time periods mentioned by Paul in those passages.

 

[DAN P]

The school of thought called D'ism is not the same as the eras or time periods mentioned by Paul in those passages.

Hi and you do not have and answer , THEN , for those verses at ALL ??

DAN P

 

[Interplanner]

Hi and you do not have and answer , THEN , for those verses at ALL ??

DAN P

God made the Gospel clear in various ways at the end of post-exile Judaism. All the things God's wants to happen in his mission happen 'through the Gospel,' both its content and proclamation of it (as Paul said in Rom 16:25 ('euangelion kai to kerugma'). It is a dynamic power: simply by the declaration that God was in Christ reconciling the debt of man's sins, the reign of God spread and invades and infiltrates.

This is very direct and streamlined when compared to the Law. Anyone can say those things; qualifying to do the law is very involved. The new stewardship of God's truth is mission-efficient. It does not got entangled with humans trying to perfect their observance of the law. That management or handling or administration of God's truth is over with.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Dispensationalism is so unnaturally attached to the Bible that NT background is virtually lost. Here is a bit of history as to why this is so.

Dispensationalism is a system that is full of factors and contingencies completely outside of the apostles thinking and teaching, such as restoring a theocratic state to Israel. Those factors are unnaturally glommed-on to a few texts, mainly Mt 23's 'until you sing blessed is he who comes...' and Rom 11's 'all Israel saved.' They believe this is 'rightly dividing' the Bible, which is bad English for 'rightly handling' the Bible in light of ignorant people who want to scrap over terms and words from the Law instead of using the Bible to administer church leaders and people effectively, I Tim 2.

D'ism started in the 1800s when there was a flourish of off-base cults with major delusions at the center. They drifted way off the center of the Bible.

The odd thing about this is that one pastor who stuck with the historical view (no glommed-on 2P2P type theories) dealt a massive blow to the leading atheist writer of the day (I'm referring to the English Pastor Holford's ministry vs Thomas Payne's attempt to end all religion). This was early 1800, and it is fascinating to note what happens next: uniformitarianism AND several bizarre cults start up, including D'ism, but none of them maintain the grip on history and the solid connection between the NT and the destruction of Israel that is all through it.

Which makes tragic sense: once you cut the NT loose from that, all the awful beliefs of those systems take over. Futurism did it by thousands of reps that Mt 24A was about events X000 years in the future, and by cultivating the 19th century resurgence of Judaism's interest in its own trinity--God / torah / land in the 1800s. In a cultic way, and out of nowwhere, there was now a "Christian" and even "evangelical" movement that had almost no understanding of NT history or how the NT used the OT to maximize the accomplishment of Christ. Which means they read the OT the EXACT SAME WAY AS THE RESURGENT JUDAISM!!!

D'ism has had no effect on the modern world that would subvert it from uniformitarianism; it simply burps up a 'prediction' about once a decade, which comes and goes, and the public sneers.

:chuckle:

 

[DAN P]

God made the Gospel clear in various ways at the end of post-exile Judaism. All the things God's wants to happen in his mission happen 'through the Gospel,' both its content and proclamation of it (as Paul said in Rom 16:25 ('euangelion kai to kerugma'). It is a dynamic power: simply by the declaration that God was in Christ reconciling the debt of man's sins, the reign of God spread and invades and infiltrates.

This is very direct and streamlined when compared to the Law. Anyone can say those things; qualifying to do the law is very involved. The new stewardship of God's truth is mission-efficient. It does not got entangled with humans trying to perfect their observance of the law. That management or handling or administration of God's truth is over with.

Hi and you should be able to say HOW Peter was saved , before Paul was appointed an APOSTLE !!

Did Peter ever preach that all believers in Acts would go to heaven AND how believers in Acts would be BAPTIZO / PLACED into the Body of Christ , especially , when Jews are saved they are never Jews again as recorded in Gal 3:28 !!

So where did Jesus make the Gospel CLEAR and in what verse ??

dan p

 

[northwye]

http://biblehub.com/greek/3622.htm

Strong's number 3622. oikonomia, dispensation, stewardship
Definition: management of household affairs, stewardship, administration.
HELPS Word-studies

3622 oikonomía (from 3621 /oikonoméō, "a steward, managing a household") – properly, a stewardship, management (administration), i.e. where a person looks after another's affairs (resources).

[A "dispensation" can also refer to a special period of time (management). But this is a secondary (not primary) meaning of 3622 (oikonomía).

"For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me." I Corinthians 9: 17

Paul is using oikonomia to mean a stewardship, or an administration, given to him by Christ in I Corinthians 9: 17

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" Ephesians 1: 10

He is using oikonomia here as being God's administering or managing the heavens and the earth, so that in the fullness of time he gathers all things in Christ.

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:" Ephesians 3: 2

In Ephesians 3: 2 Paul us using oikonomia as meaning administration of grace of God.

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;" Colossians 1: 25

He is using oikonomia in the sense of stewardship in Colossians 1: 25

How does Paul's use of oikonomia, dispensation, indicate that he is talking about a set of doctrines that were first called dispensationalism? How could the use of oikonomia, dispensation, prove hat Paul is somehow supporting the doctrines of dispensationalism? The founders of dispensationalism say that these basic doctrines are a consistent literal interpretation of scripture and that God now has two peoples, Israel, meaning Old Covenant Israel, and the Church.

Stephen Sizer wrote a book called Christian Zionism: Road Map to Armageddon?, Inter-Varsity Press, 2004. The book is a history and criticism of dispensationalism, which Sizer calls Christian Zionism. Most likely Sizer uses Christian Zionism instead of dispensationalism because the word dispensationalism does not accurately describe the set of doctrines of "dispensationalism."

What are the main or basic doctrines of Christian Zionism?

"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323...

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

The belief that the physical bloodline from Abraham is still in effect is fundamental to Christian Zionism's doctrine that Israel, meaning Old Covenant Israel, is now a people of God, alongside the church.

 

[Danoh]

So, to Paul was given (or dispensed) a dispensation, but no doctrines (dispensations - that which is dispensed or doled out) about it to give, or dispense to others.

Got it.

Real bright, northwye.

Never mind the obvious of his...

1 Corinthians 1:9 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Or of...

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Yep, no Lord, no household, no - faithful - steward, let alone - over His... household, no meat, let alone - their portion of meat, and no due season - it's all the same.

You are yet a child...playing under the kitchen sink...taking the liquid bottle - of Draino - for a thirst quencher - because mommy gives me liquid when I am thirsty...I am thirsty...and this Draino is...a liquid.

One size fits all...is alive and well.

:doh:

 

[northwye]

"The founders of dispensationalism say that these basic doctrines are a consistent literal interpretation of scripture and that God now has two peoples, Israel, meaning Old Covenant Israel, and the Church."

Where in the New Testament - the Gospel of Christ - are these doctrines found?

 

[patrick jane]

:chuckle:

We at TOL sneer at Interplanner

 

[northwye]

I know that TOL had a greater diversity of members - different theologies - and was more active than Rapture Ready or Talk Jesus. And - both Rapture Ready and Talk Jesus had very active moderators who kept an eye on members who might post something critical of Christian Zionism. I got censored on Rapture Ready and booted out of Talk Jesus for posting stuff critical of Christian Zionism and on Dean Gotcher. Dean Gotcher does not focus on being critical of Christian Zionism, but what he says about the dialectic method of argument which is used to promote and defend this theology makes its followers dislike him. They also dislike Gotcher because they do not understand what he is talking about which is the Marxist version of the dialectic.

But I see more individual bashing on TOL now than I remember from the short times I was on Rapture Ready and Talk Jesus. There the bashing came from the moderators more than regular members.

 

[Interplanner]

So, to Paul was given (or dispensed) a dispensation, but no doctrines (dispensations - that which is dispensed or doled out) about it to give, or dispense to others.

Got it.

Real bright, northwye.

Never mind the obvious of his...

1 Corinthians 1:9 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Or of...

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Yep, no Lord, no household, no - faithful - steward, let alone - over His... household, no meat, let alone - their portion of meat, and no due season - it's all the same.

You are yet a child...playing under the kitchen sink...taking the liquid bottle - of Draino - for a thirst quencher - because mommy gives me liquid when I am thirsty...I am thirsty...and this Draino is...a liquid.

One size fits all...is alive and well.

:doh:

this is hardly a response to the summaries of D'ism from Goch. You practice all those. Several people have pointed out the direct line between Zionism and regional war.

 

[Danoh]

this is hardly a response to the summaries of D'ism from Goch. You practice all those. Several people have pointed out the direct line between Zionism and regional war.

Try the Scripture.

 

[DAN P]

So, to Paul was given (or dispensed) a dispensation, but no doctrines (dispensations - that which is dispensed or doled out) about it to give, or dispense to others.

Got it.

Real bright, northwye.

Never mind the obvious of his...

1 Corinthians 1:9 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Or of...

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Yep, no Lord, no household, no - faithful - steward, let alone - over His... household, no meat, let alone - their portion of meat, and no due season - it's all the same.

You are yet a child...playing under the kitchen sink...taking the liquid bottle - of Draino - for a thirst quencher - because mommy gives me liquid when I am thirsty...I am thirsty...and this Draino is...a liquid.

One size fits all...is alive and well.

:doh:

Hi and it is always the same thing , that DISPENSATION / OIKONOMIA means OIKOS MEANS HOUSE and nomos means LAW and just check VINE'S by using the English words HOUSE and than LAW !!

The Greek for STEWARDSHIP is OIKONOMOS and is a different Greek word !!

You first have to know the MYSTERY THEN you will become a MANAGER , STEWARD of God's DISPENSATION and NOT until then !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

True, DanP.

But I don't need the Greek much.

Words and or phrases reveal their intended sense by how they are used, where they are found being used, in relation to who and or what is being talked about, and why.

"See" what I mean?

"Get my drift?"

"Ya feelin me?"

"Does that sound right?"

"Does it click for you?"

"Can ya hear me?"

All of these examples reveal their intended sense through the above principle.

I realize you might or might not agree...

Either...is fine, by me.

"One man's junk...is another man's...treasure."

And vice versa...

What matters in the end...is that we both end up at the same end...result

 

[Interplanner]

Try the Scripture.

You don't like people actually reporting back on what you are doing or saying.

 

[DAN P]

True, DanP.

But I don't need the Greek much.

Words and or phrases reveal their intended sense by how they are used, where they are found being used, in relation to who and or what is being talked about, and why.

"See" what I mean?

"Get my drift?"

"Ya feelin me?"

"Does that sound right?"

"Does it click for you?"

"Can ya hear me?"

All of these examples reveal their intended sense through the above principle.

I realize you might or might not agree...

Either...is fine, by me.

"One man's junk...is another man's...treasure."

And vice versa...

What matters in the end...is that we both end up at the same end...result

Hi and that is why there are many translation , and they say the same as you , to see what MAKES SENSE and they all struggle to make sense !!

If you follow Paul as the WHOLESOME WORDS of the Holy Spirit , you will have a good DEFENSE !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

You don't like people actually reporting back on what you are doing or saying.

On the contrary.

But yours is not that.

Yours is your reading into another's words - you've yet to show I view Romans 9's mention of Gentiles as an analogy - that is your reading into what I said :chuckle:

By the way, your pm box is full; you might want to download them, if you wish to "save" them.

 

[Danoh]

Hi and that is why there are many translation , and they say the same as you , to see what MAKES SENSE and they all struggle to make sense !!

If you follow Paul as the WHOLESOME WORDS of the Holy Spirit , you will have a good DEFENSE !!

dan p

Can't rightly understand Paul without that principle I mentioned about how words "work together for" their writer's intended "good"