ECT Matching modern thought in two theological mistakes

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Interplanner

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As F. Schaeffer used to show, there are many philosophical questions which are actually theological, but modern man only swerves and trips into the reality that they are theological and already known to the Bible. For ex., the problem of evil or prelapsarianism. That would be the modern view that is totally surprised to find evil all around us. The modern assumption is that the world is basically a great place and so are people. They may need the drug of self-image indoctrination from time to time, but at least it is still being manufactured, right?

I am proposing that the belief that a period of time will be on THIS earth (see above) in which there is another episode of Judaism with Christ has a world monarch over the nations as we know them, is the same kind of thinking. It has not truly accepted the status of this world as we know it as ruined, fatally flawed, 'lapsed.' It is pre-lapse.

We do not find this in the NT and we find an extra effort by the NT to detach from Judaism and its expectations. The 'great salvation' (things that are in addition to forgiveness and righteousness in Christ) of Heb 2, for ex., is not this 'millenial' period of time. It clearly says so. It is about 'the world to come of which we are speaking' (in case the reader raised in Judaism thought it was about this world as we know it). Likewise 2 Peter 3.

The mistake of thinking it is a period of time on this earth is the same kind of mistake as saying the earth never was cursed with the futility since Gen 3 that Rom 8 says is there, awaiting the total change that is coming. 'Millenium' or NHNE? It is the same mistake not to realize that these are not the same, cannot be the same.

The Christian message does not have a 2nd program going, a futility program, and it wouldn't have it going for only 1000 years and ending in rebellion. It wouldn't have something like that and call it the NHNE. There is no expectation in the NT that there would be the extended amount of history that we now have had since the destruction of Jerusalem. But there is an allowance for it.
 
steko

steko

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It seems odd that you would cite Dr. Francis Schaeffer to support your supersessionism, who was a Historic Premillennialist and believed in the restoration of Israel back to the land, the 1000 year reign of Christ on David's throne on this earth, and the restoration of all things which the prophets spoke since the beginning of the age.

"I hold very definite views in eschatology, but eschatology is not the integration point of my theology."- Dr. Francis Schaeffer, "The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer", Vol. 3 "The New Super-Spirituality"(1972) page 396.

"The book of Revelation is, of course, the last book of the Bible. It completes the unity of the Old and New Testaments, and the total gives us what we need until the second coming of Christ. Beginning with chapter 4, the book of Revelation speaks primarily of future events. It gives us propositional truth concerning things of the future...................... It tells us things that will happen in future space and time.........History is going some place; it is not a series of endless cycles......This era will end with the future space-time coming of Christ and His reign upon the earth.

An excellent illustration is found in a prophecy of Joel:
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.(Joel 2:28-32)

....................Centuries later, Pentecost fulfilled a large portion of the prophecy..............

Yet, not all of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost. God's covenant with Abraham had had two portions, one spiritual, the other natural or national.
We Christians stand in the stream of the spiritual portion, but the natural portion is not yet in its totality fulfilled. Since God does not lie, He will fulfill His promise to the Jews as Jews, and those Jews who are alive at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved and the Holy Spirit will then indwell them as He came to the Christians at Pentecost. Paul, writing on this side of the open tomb, prophesied, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob...For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Rom. 11:26-29).

Thus Joel's prophecy involves both our present and Israel's future. The Jews in the future will be saved on the same basis that we Christians (Jews or Gentiles) are saved in the present, by the finished work of the Old-Testament prophesied Messiah, the Lamb of God, and they will be saved to the same end."- Dr. Francis A. Schaeffer, "The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer", Vol 3, "No Little People"(1974), pages 159-160.

So, not only was Francis A. Schaeffer a Premillennialist, he was also a 2P2P-er.

Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would disagree on many points with Dr. Schaeffer's Historical Premillennialism but....you should probably pick someone other than Francis A. Schaeffer as your champion of supersessionism and nonliteralism.
 
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SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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Interplanner said:
As F. Schaeffer used to show, there are many philosophical questions which are actually theological, but modern man only swerves and trips into the reality that they are theological and already known to the Bible. For ex., the problem of evil or prelapsarianism. That would be the modern view that is totally surprised to find evil all around us. The modern assumption is that the world is basically a great place and so are people. They may need the drug of self-image indoctrination from time to time, but at least it is still being manufactured, right?

I am proposing that the belief that a period of time will be on THIS earth (see above) in which there is another episode of Judaism with Christ has a world monarch over the nations as we know them, is the same kind of thinking. It has not truly accepted the status of this world as we know it as ruined, fatally flawed, 'lapsed.' It is pre-lapse.

We do not find this in the NT and we find an extra effort by the NT to detach from Judaism and its expectations. The 'great salvation' (things that are in addition to forgiveness and righteousness in Christ) of Heb 2, for ex., is not this 'millenial' period of time. It clearly says so. It is about 'the world to come of which we are speaking' (in case the reader raised in Judaism thought it was about this world as we know it). Likewise 2 Peter 3.

The mistake of thinking it is a period of time on this earth is the same kind of mistake as saying the earth never was cursed with the futility since Gen 3 that Rom 8 says is there, awaiting the total change that is coming. 'Millenium' or NHNE? It is the same mistake not to realize that these are not the same, cannot be the same.

The Christian message does not have a 2nd program going, a futility program, and it wouldn't have it going for only 1000 years and ending in rebellion. It wouldn't have something like that and call it the NHNE. There is no expectation in the NT that there would be the extended amount of history that we now have had since the destruction of Jerusalem. But there is an allowance for it.
Click to expand...

What job did the LORD give to Adam?
Did he complete it?
Who is the last Adam?
 
Tambora

Tambora

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steko said:
Interplanner said:
As F. Schaeffer used to show, there are many philosophical questions which are actually theological, but modern man only swerves and trips into the reality that they are theological and already known to the Bible. For ex., the problem of evil or prelapsarianism. That would be the modern view that is totally surprised to find evil all around us. The modern assumption is that the world is basically a great place and so are people. They may need the drug of self-image indoctrination from time to time, but at least it is still being manufactured, right?

I am proposing that the belief that a period of time will be on THIS earth (see above) in which there is another episode of Judaism with Christ has a world monarch over the nations as we know them, is the same kind of thinking. It has not truly accepted the status of this world as we know it as ruined, fatally flawed, 'lapsed.' It is pre-lapse.

We do not find this in the NT and we find an extra effort by the NT to detach from Judaism and its expectations. The 'great salvation' (things that are in addition to forgiveness and righteousness in Christ) of Heb 2, for ex., is not this 'millenial' period of time. It clearly says so. It is about 'the world to come of which we are speaking' (in case the reader raised in Judaism thought it was about this world as we know it). Likewise 2 Peter 3.

The mistake of thinking it is a period of time on this earth is the same kind of mistake as saying the earth never was cursed with the futility since Gen 3 that Rom 8 says is there, awaiting the total change that is coming. 'Millenium' or NHNE? It is the same mistake not to realize that these are not the same, cannot be the same.

The Christian message does not have a 2nd program going, a futility program, and it wouldn't have it going for only 1000 years and ending in rebellion. It wouldn't have something like that and call it the NHNE. There is no expectation in the NT that there would be the extended amount of history that we now have had since the destruction of Jerusalem. But there is an allowance for it.
Click to expand...

It seems odd that you would cite Dr. Francis Schaeffer to support your supersessionism, who was a Historic Premillennialist and believed in the restoration of Israel back to the land, the 1000 year reign of Christ on David's throne on this earth, and the restoration of all things which the prophets spoke since the beginning of the age.

"I hold very definite views in eschatology, but eschatology is not the integration point of my theology."- Dr. Francis Schaeffer, "The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer", Vol. 3 "The New Super-Spirituality"(1972) page 396.

"The book of Revelation is, of course, the last book of the Bible. It completes the unity of the Old and New Testaments, and the total gives us what we need until the second coming of Christ. Beginning with chapter 4, the book of Revelation speaks primarily of future events. It gives us propositional truth concerning things of the future...................... It tells us things that will happen in future space and time.........History is going some place; it is not a series of endless cycles......This era will end with the future space-time coming of Christ and His reign upon the earth.

An excellent illustration is found in a prophecy of Joel:
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.(Joel 2:28-32)

....................Centuries later, Pentecost fulfilled a large portion of the prophecy..............

Yet, not all of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost. God's covenant with Abraham had had two portions, one spiritual, the other natural or national.
We Christians stand in the stream of the spiritual portion, but the natural portion is not yet in its totality fulfilled. Since God does not lie, He will fulfill His promise to the Jews as Jews, and those Jews who are alive at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved and the Holy Spirit will then indwell them as He came to the Christians at Pentecost. Paul, writing on this side of the open tomb, prophesied, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob...For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Rom. 11:26-29).

Thus Joel's prophecy involves both our present and Israel's future. The Jews in the future will be saved on the same basis that we Christians (Jews or Gentiles) are saved in the present, by the finished work of the Old-Testament prophesied Messiah, the Lamb of God, and they will be saved to the same end."- Dr. Francis A. Schaeffer, "The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer", Vol 3, "No Little People"(1974), pages 159-160.

So, not only was Francis A. Schaeffer a Premillennialist, he was also a 2P2P-er.

Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would disagree on many points with Dr. Schaeffer's Historical Premillennialism but....you should probably pick someone other than Francis A. Schaeffer as your champion of supersessionism and nonliteralism.
Click to expand...
Indeed.

:popcorn:
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Tambora said:
Indeed.

:popcorn:
Click to expand...





Because as the Steko quote shows, it is not his integration point like 2P2P is. In 2P2P, you start there and the rest of the Bible has to make sense/square with it.

Maybe that's why in 10 years of contact, I never heard anything about it. And Schaeffer's study years predate the knowledge we now have through the DSS about what was going on in Judea at the time.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
What job did the LORD give to Adam?
Did he complete it?
Who is the last Adam?
Click to expand...





those aren't the NT questions. The great salvation is about 'the world to come of which we are speaking' which is the NHNE. Your questions will never resolve your abuse of the listed verses of Acts on which you have used IEDs.

as I said before, so long as you find the resolution of that in the NHNE, not in a short period on this earth, it's fine, and agreeable. Doing two tracks, missing the 'newness' across the board of the NT definitions of things--is unacceptable.
 
I

Interplanner

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Btw, I don't know any place where Schaeffer even mentioned the destruction of Jerusalem. When you don't do that, and when docs like Luke are crammed with reference to it, it gets a bit ridiculous to use such an author on that topic.
 
I

Interplanner

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Tell me in your own words what you think he meant by 'eschatology is not my integration point.' Is it yours?

When a person became a Christian in his ministry, why did they sing the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's MESSIAH, which was understood to be true as of the Resurrection , and placed that way in the libretto of MESSIAH?
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Genesis
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



1 Cor
15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



There MUST be an earthly reign of the LORD Jesus Christ.
It is undeniable.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
No answer. Noted.
Click to expand...




No answer because it is not needed. God has subjected the world to come to Christ, ABOUT WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING. Not this world, and def not for a short 1000 years ("as a day").

Try your stupic 3 part heaven and universe out on Col 1:20: there is one thing that reconciles ANYTHING in the universe in one way to God: the blood shed on the cross. And it happened in one historic event. That's final proof how fragmented, exploded you are in your abuse of the "list" of Acts etc, that is totally unanswered. "Noted."
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
No answer because it is not needed. God has subjected the world to come to Christ, ABOUT WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING. Not this world, and def not for a short 1000 years ("as a day").

Try your stupic 3 part heaven and universe out on Col 1:20: there is one thing that reconciles ANYTHING in the universe in one way to God: the blood shed on the cross. And it happened in one historic event. That's final proof how fragmented, exploded you are in your abuse of the "list" of Acts etc, that is totally unanswered. "Noted."
Click to expand...

Genesis
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



1 Cor
15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



There MUST be an earthly reign of the LORD Jesus Christ.
It is undeniable.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Despite the scoffing of IP, in eternity, the earth, the new Jerusalem, and the heavens will be filled with the children of God, according to their inheritance and according to God's purpose for them.

Find out which one has been offered to you, today, in this time.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Try your stupic 3 part heaven and universe out on Col 1:20: there is one thing that reconciles ANYTHING in the universe in one way to God: the blood shed on the cross. And it happened in one historic event. That's final proof how fragmented, exploded you are in your abuse of the "list" of Acts etc, that is totally unanswered. "Noted."
Click to expand...

Col
1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Amen. This verse strengthens my case.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
As F. Schaeffer used to show, there are many philosophical questions which are actually theological, but modern man only swerves and trips into the reality that they are theological and already known to the Bible. For ex., the problem of evil or prelapsarianism. That would be the modern view that is totally surprised to find evil all around us. The modern assumption is that the world is basically a great place and so are people. They may need the drug of self-image indoctrination from time to time, but at least it is still being manufactured, right?

I am proposing that the belief that a period of time will be on THIS earth (see above) in which there is another episode of Judaism with Christ has a world monarch over the nations as we know them, is the same kind of thinking. It has not truly accepted the status of this world as we know it as ruined, fatally flawed, 'lapsed.' It is pre-lapse.

We do not find this in the NT and we find an extra effort by the NT to detach from Judaism and its expectations. The 'great salvation' (things that are in addition to forgiveness and righteousness in Christ) of Heb 2, for ex., is not this 'millenial' period of time. It clearly says so. It is about 'the world to come of which we are speaking' (in case the reader raised in Judaism thought it was about this world as we know it). Likewise 2 Peter 3.

The mistake of thinking it is a period of time on this earth is the same kind of mistake as saying the earth never was cursed with the futility since Gen 3 that Rom 8 says is there, awaiting the total change that is coming. 'Millenium' or NHNE? It is the same mistake not to realize that these are not the same, cannot be the same.

The Christian message does not have a 2nd program going, a futility program, and it wouldn't have it going for only 1000 years and ending in rebellion. It wouldn't have something like that and call it the NHNE. There is no expectation in the NT that there would be the extended amount of history that we now have had since the destruction of Jerusalem. But there is an allowance for it.
Click to expand...


Applying this to individuals, it supports the doctrine that there are no innocents born into the world, all are guilty and some are even condemned already...
 
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