Let us talk about Salvation Deliverance of Sin

[KerimF]

Before going on, I hope to hear first your personal answer (if you are free to give it) of each of the following questions:

[1] If my parents did something real bad against someone, does this imply that I also did sin against this person because I am their son?

[2] Does a very loving father see in anything that his little baby/kid may do as a sin for which his baby deserves to be punished severely?

[3] If someone did something real bad to you, do you think he can repent really by asking someone else for forgiveness of what he did to you?

[4] In your opinion, is it possible for an act of sinning to occur and no one is hurt, in any way, because of it?

By the way, I know already what ‘formal’ Christians (belonging to an organized Church, by their own will) in all around the world are supposed to believe about “salvation deliverance of sin”. So, naturally, I also understand (and even expect) the fear that let many readers here avoid talking about it... in their own name.

 

[Bradley D]

Before going on, I hope to hear first your personal answer (if you are free to give it) of each of the following questions:

[1] If my parents did something real bad against someone, does this imply that I also did sin against this person because I am their son?

[2] Does a very loving father see in anything that his little baby/kid may do as a sin for which his baby deserves to be punished severely?

[3] If someone did something real bad to you, do you think he can repent really by asking someone else for forgiveness of what he did to you?

[4] In your opinion, is it possible for an act of sinning to occur and no one is hurt, in any way, because of it?

By the way, I know already what ‘formal’ Christians (belonging to an organized Church, by their own will) in all around the world are supposed to believe about “salvation deliverance of sin”. So, naturally, I also understand (and even expect) the fear that let many readers here avoid talking about it... in their own name.

Number 1: No.

Number 2: No

Number 3: If he asks God and truly repents and amends his life. Yes. I must also as Christian forgive.

Number 4: Sin of the mind/thought is a sin against God.

 

[KerimF]

Thank you Bradley for giving your own view.

[1] Truth be said, I was expecting that you will guess the purpose of my first question. From your last answer [4], its seems you didn't mind believing that God created the universe as described in the story of Adam and Eve that was inspired to our ancient ancestors; kids of humanity. You may like reading my post #150 about the progress of God's teachings on the thread (Religion):
WHO IS GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES

I mean; to you in the least (but perhaps I am wrong), all humans, including you and I, are the children of Adam and Eve who, in the story, sinned against God's will. And being their children, every human has to inherit their sin and, therefore, be a sinner even before saying or doing anything. Your answer 'no', which is mine too, surprised me as if you forgot the inherited 'Original Sin', preached by all Christian Churches in the world, despite their differences.

[2] Yes, my answer is also 'no'. But I am afraid that what I will say you will not like it If I, an earthly loving father, can never allow myself hurting my son in any way and for any reason (though I can't stop the world to do it), I can't believe that, the Spirit of Love of my God could be lower than mine (supposed being born of God's Spirit). But, naturally, if a father thinks he owned his children, he doesn't mind seeing in his God his own image though magnified. This explains why most people (theists) around the world have to believe that the image of their God should reflect their selfishness multiplied by zillion times

[3] Me too, I forgive even my enemies even if they don't ask me for forgiveness (as Jesus did on the cross). But I am afraid that the first part of your answer is followed by all Pagans, Muslims and Jews (besides formal Christians). They don't mind doing anything wrong, they are capable of, to some others, in business and wars for example, since they were told that their God will forgive all their sins (committed towards other people) if they repent truly before Him in their last days. On my side, I ask always for forgiveness the person whom I may hurt because of my ignorance/weakness.

[4] I can't believe that I, the powerless tiny creature, has the power to hurt my Creator, no matter what I may or can do. On the other hand, due to my ignorance or weakness, I may hurt myself or some others sometimes. But, at the same time, I understand that the majority of theists around the world don't mind believing that they were given the power to control remotely, by certain doings, the status of their Creator; for example, from being pleased to angry and vice versa.

You may comment now: "If, based on your logic Kerim, one cannot sin against God (cannot hurt God), from which sin did Jesus come to save you?".
I will continue tomorrow, here it is about 1:30 AM

 

[Bradley D]

Number 1: The Bible reads that children are not responsible for the actions of their parents. Likewise parents are not responsible for the wrongs committed by the children.

"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin" (Deut. 24:16).

Also there is an age of innocence. Even though we have the sin of Adam and Eve.

"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it" (Deut, 1:39).

What was the temptation of the serpent that got Eve to eat of the fruit the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[KerimF]

Thank you for clarifying more about the inheritance of sins.
By the way, my answer of [1] is 'no' though I had no idea what is written about it on the Old Testament.

What about the 'Original Sin'?

In your opinion, Isn't it inherited? Isn't it against God?
My answers are 'yes, it is inherited' and 'no, it is not against God' respectively.

In the far past, people, including Jews/Israelis, used seeing any serious weakness in one’s body as a result of having sinned; a sin or sins committed by the body’s owner or by some of his ancestors. After all, our ancient ancestors (kids of humanity) had to think this way because of their very limited knowledge about many fields in life, including medicine. In other words, just having something real wrong in a living body, the person in question was considered as being a sinner, even if he didn’t commit anything bad to anyone else (this could be seen clearly in Jesus life and the healed handicapped persons who were supposed/seen to be sinners).

Now, no one can deny, that all human babies have to be born with a common serious weakness.They are all born totally ignorant (as new/fresh superpower computers that have no data downloaded yet). So this universal weakness had to be also presented to our ancient ancestors as a result of sinning, hence its name "Original Sin". And the coming of Jesus (the Living Word of God) was promised to save humans from this sin.

Sorry, because, unlike what all formal Christians in the world are supposed to believe, I don't see in Jesus a comedian who came to play a real role in a tragedy (before the Father in Heaven; that is before Himself too). Indeed, Jesus came to save me from the 'ignorance' I had to be born with. He says: I am the Light; the light of what? if it is not the Light of Knowledge. He says: I am the Path; the path to what? if it is not the path to get the true knowledge by which one can learn how to feed his soul (if one perceives it) for eternity; God's Realm.

Jesus was able to save me because He, unlike any person in human history, is the divine all-knowledge teacher about 'Life Reality'. Thanks to His teachings, sayings and hints, I was able discovering, with time, the logical answers (since I am a man of reason only) of all my important questions related to my existence and the real world as it is created.

But I also understand that every person has his good reasons to know Jesus in a different way; a way which is suitable to his personal life and/or the environment in which he lives.

 

[Hilltrot]

What about the 'Original Sin'?

While I would say that while many Christians are taught this, ‘original sin’ was made up by Augustine in the 5th century and he got it from his Manichaean and Platonic background.

In the far past, people, including Jews/Israelis, used seeing any serious weakness in one’s body as a result of having sinned; a sin or sins committed by the body’s owner or by some of his ancestors.

God disagreed with this in Job - an ancient Book.

Sorry, because, unlike what all formal Christians in the world are supposed to believe, I don't see in Jesus a comedian who came to play a real role in a tragedy (before the Father in Heaven; that is before Himself too). Indeed, Jesus came to save me from the 'ignorance' I had to be born with. He says: I am the Light; the light of what? if it is not the Light of Knowledge. He says: I am the Path; the path to what? if it is not the path to get the true knowledge by which one can learn how to feed his soul (if one perceives it) for eternity; God's Realm.

Jesus was able to save me because He, unlike any person in human history, is the divine all-knowledge teacher about 'Life Reality'. Thanks to His teachings, sayings and hints, I was able discovering, with time, the logical answers (since I am a man of reason only) of all my important questions related to my existence and the real world as it is created.

But I also understand that every person has his good reasons to know Jesus in a different way; a way which is suitable to his personal life and/or the environment in which he lives.

I’m not going to follow you down that rabbit-hole. But I would suggest some very simple Biblical education - try The Bible Project.

 

[KerimF]

While I would say that while many Christians are taught this, ‘original sin’ was made up by Augustine in the 5th century and he got it from his Manichaean and Platonic background.
God disagreed with this in Job - an ancient Book.
I’m not going to follow you down that rabbit-hole. But I would suggest some very simple Biblical education - try The Bible Project.

I believe that every person has the right to be attached to any scriptures he sees holy. In fact, my Muslim friends see the world thru their holy scriptures only in Quran; besides some other holy resources related to them.

In brief, I knew/discovered that Jesus is indeed the Living Word of my Creator (The One Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified, since before Creation, by the divine spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit) based on reason only, not faith. Yes, to my big surprise, I found out that Jesus 'only' agrees with me on whatever I perceived in my being and all what I have discovered in the real world in which I am created. What do I need to know more than this? So without the information that were revealed by Jesus Christ, I would look, even to myself, as a real weird/abnormal person who loves even his enemies.

Didn't Nicodemus have a complete, not simple, Biblical education? What did he get when he asked and talked with Jesus?

Anyway, thank you for worrying about me. And as long you feel fine in what you believe and do, you can be sure that you are on the right path for which you are created in the first place.

 

[Hilltrot]

In fact, my Muslim friends see the world thru their holy scriptures only in Quran; besides some other holy resources related to them.

You have gone down the silly path of universalism with which the Bible and Quran fully disagrees.

Your friends’ Quran and Hadiths say that I should be killed. You do realize that - right?

Basically, you’ve come up with your own human philosophy and religion which has no relation to reality, the Bible, or Jesus.

 

[Bradley D]

"What about the 'Original Sin'?"

Cause of original sin to me was free will. God intended man to tend His creation. But humankind had the knowledge of good and evil. The temptation of the serpent was that he told Eve they shall be as god's. That is man today. Pride. Wanting to be a god and getting what they can from this world to make them so. They all fail. Those who turn to God learn to become servants and give up wanting to be gods. They learn the truth and want to live it. Therefore, they resist evil which is a life journey in order to live the Word. The reward is to ultimately to be with the Father and Christ in heaven.

 

[KerimF]

"What about the 'Original Sin'?"
Cause of original sin to me was free will. God intended man to tend His creation. But humankind had the knowledge of good and evil. The temptation of the serpent was that he told Eve they shall be as god's. That is man today. Pride. Wanting to be a god and getting what they can from this world to make them so. They all fail. Those who turn to God learn to become servants and give up wanting to be gods. They learn the truth and want to live it. Therefore, they resist evil which is a life journey in order to live the Word. The reward is to ultimately to be with the Father and Christ in heaven.

Sorry because it seems that, to you in the least, Jesus was kidding when he said clearly:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Even on earth, the best wish of a father is that his son will be like him.

By the way, slaves, not sons, get rewards from their masters for being faithful and obedient.
On the other hand, a loving father shares everything he has with his beloved sons.

So I am very sorry for not being able to see God as you do.

 

[KerimF]

You have gone down the silly path of universalism with which the Bible and Quran fully disagrees.
Your friends’ Quran and Hadiths say that I should be killed. You do realize that - right?
Basically, you’ve come up with your own human philosophy and religion which has no relation to reality, the Bible, or Jesus.

You remind me how my Muslim friends are pity on me when I told them that their Ruling God (Allah) cannot exist in my reality/life. They are sorry for me because they believe that I will end up into their Allah's eternal hell while they will be rewarded by joining his eternal paradise with many beautiful virgins serving them

On the other hand, my Jewish friends are also sorry for me because I will not be among them when Jesus will come and reign the world with his chosen people.

So I wish you may be able to tell me someday the reason for which I also deserve your sorry for me. Thank you.

 

[Bradley D]

Sorry because it seems that, to you in the least, Jesus was kidding when he said clearly:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Even on earth, the best wish of a father is that his son will be like him.

By the way, slaves, not sons, get rewards from their masters for being faithful and obedient.
On the other hand, a loving father shares everything he has with his beloved sons.

So I am very sorry for not being able to see God as you do.

I believe we are to strive to be perfect in love (agape). That is God's love and requires me to work on that everyday. However I be believe we will be tempted. That is why in the Lord's prayer I pray to be delvered from "evil." Are you ever tempted?

 

[Hilltrot]

You remind me how my Muslim friends are pity on me when I told them that their Ruling God (Allah) cannot exist in my reality/life. They are sorry for me because they believe that I will end up into their Allah's eternal hell while they will be rewarded by joining his eternal paradise with many beautiful virgins serving them

On the other hand, my Jewish friends are also sorry for me because I will not be among them when Jesus will come and reign the world with his chosen people.

So I wish you may be able to tell me someday the reason for which I also deserve your sorry for me. Thank you.

If you just want to be difficult, just tell me and I'll move on. I will never feel sorry for someone who puts on the airs of a "I'm being persecuted" routine to try to gain traction in a discussion.

 

[KerimF]

Are you ever tempted?

Sorry, I am not sure of which temptation(s) you are asking about.

What I can say is; it happens that since I was teen I had no interest, at all, to hurt someone, even if I had the right doing it sometimes (supported by the world's justice or human rights), because this hurts my soul too. And if, due to my ignorance of someone's nature, I discovered that I hurt him unintentionally, I couldn't restore my inner peace till I corrected what I did to him and apologized,

 

[KerimF]

If you just want to be difficult, just tell me and I'll move on. I will never feel sorry for someone who puts on the airs of a "I'm being persecuted" routine to try to gain traction in a discussion.

I am not sure how you deduced from any of my posts, here or in other threads/sections, that I complain being persecuted!
The main point I liked to present is that Jesus came to save me from my ignorance (weakness at birth) and not to save me by a new magic... like "believe that you are a sinner and Jesus is your Saviour, you are saved".

Truth be said, you are right to see me having my own human philosophy/religion because, to me, 'Jesus only' is the divine all-knowledge teacher in human history (and to the end of time).
You are right because the great majority of today's Christians were taught that Jesus is mainly an idol (not teacher) who needs their obedience, worship and glory. But if this is LOVE than peoples also love their supreme rulers since they also obey their rules and glorify them by celebrating rituals which are much like the ones for worshiping/glorifying gods.

Anyway, let me suppose that you, personally, don't see Jesus just an idol to be worshiped and ask this:
Did you have the chance to learn from Jesus one natural truth, in the least, concerning Life Reality and no man dares revealing it openly (via satellites) as clear as Jesus did?
Did you have the chance to learn from any man (hence not Jesus) a natural truth concerning Life Reality that Jesus didn't reveal?
Thank you.

 

[Bradley D]

Sorry, I am not sure of which temptation(s) you are asking about.

What I can say is; it happens that since I was teen I had no interest, at all, to hurt someone, even if I had the right doing it sometimes (supported by the world's justice or human rights), because this hurts my soul too. And if, due to my ignorance of someone's nature, I discovered that I hurt him unintentionally, I couldn't restore my inner peace till I corrected what I did to him and apologized,

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:14).

Everone has to deal with temptation. It does not mean you fall to physical sin. But even an evil thought is a sin. The is why in the Lord's Prayer we pray to the Father to "deliver us from evil."

 

[KerimF]

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:14).
Everone has to deal with temptation. It does not mean you fall to physical sin. But even an evil thought is a sin. The is why in the Lord's Prayer we pray to the Father to "deliver us from evil."

Thank you for mentioning... "deliver us from evil."
In fact, every time I had to face one or more persons who had their own good reasons to hurt me very badly (I may return to this in details later if necessary), the Holy Spirit reminds me not to follow my natural flesh's instincts. Instead, the Holly Spirit guides/helps me to let my reactions show love, nothing but love. And to my big surprise, in every such real bad situation, everything returned to normal, even on the same day and as if nothing happened in the first place.