Let me try again......Faith

[EarnestBorg9]

In this thread, http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=923156&postcount=94 (I am not sure how to truncate URL's on this board yet), Lovejoy suggested that I start a new one on the subject of faith.
My question is can faith and reason co-exist?
Of course, believers will say, "Absolutely!", so I would like to know how something can be believed intellectually (in other words, a great deal of research and thought goes into arriving at the conclusion) and believed with no evidence whatsoever (personal anecdotes aside).

But wait a minute; what about me? Don't I believe in reincarnation, Emergence, Theosophy, etc? For the time being, but I the great thing is, I have been examining my beliefs as of late (which is why I posted here in the first place), and I am at a crossroads:
I CANNOT reconcile my intellect with my "faith". I've tried, but the more I try to more I am drawn toward reasoning and faith is being pushed out.

So, how do you do it?

 

[allsmiles]

In this thread, http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=923156&postcount=94 (I am not sure how to truncate URL's on this board yet), Lovejoy suggested that I start a new one on the subject of faith.
My question is can faith and reason co-exist?
Of course, believers will say, "Absolutely!", so I would like to know how something can be believed intellectually (in other words, a great deal of research and thought goes into arriving at the conclusion) and believed with no evidence whatsoever (personal anecdotes aside).

But wait a minute; what about me? Don't I believe in reincarnation, Emergence, Theosophy, etc? For the time being, but I the great thing is, I have been examining my beliefs as of late (which is why I posted here in the first place), and I am at a crossroads:
I CANNOT reconcile my intellect with my "faith". I've tried, but the more I try to more I am drawn toward reasoning and faith is being pushed out.

So, how do you do it?

are you retaining your christianity through this process or are you beginning to doubt and find other means of spiritual fulfillment?

 

[EarnestBorg9]

are you retaining your christianity through this process or are you beginning to doubt and find other means of spiritual fulfillment?

Hi!
No, after a long and soul wrenching 2 years, I left Christianity after believing for 10 years. I then was probably an atheist in which I didn't believe in anything supernatual, and I was very content and happy, not looking for anything. Then, I think I was prompted by something, and I started studying Theosophy, Buddhism, Emergence and other philosophies.
Lately, I wonder if I was just missing having spiritual faith; although philosphy is much different than religion, I am starting to think that in terms of faith, it is not.
So, I have resolved the matter of Christianity a long time ago, but think (although that faith is waning) that there may be 'something' out there.
Or within.

 

[allsmiles]

Hi!
No, after a long and soul wrenching 2 years, I left Christianity after believing for 10 years. I then was probably an atheist in which I didn't believe in anything supernatual, and I was very content and happy, not looking for anything. Then, I think I was prompted by something, and I started studying Theosophy, Buddhism, Emergence and other philosophies.
Lately, I wonder if I was just missing having spiritual faith; although philosphy is much different than religion, I am starting to think that in terms of faith, it is not.
So, I have resolved the matter of Christianity a long time ago, but think (although that faith is waning) that there may be 'something' out there.
Or within.

good stuff.

i was brought up christian my entire life, when i did leave it i went to atheism but then went to agnosticism and then to paganism (ancestor and family worship). i think that's a normal process, to go from one extreme to the next before settling back down into spirituality.

i think a lot of my current beliefs come from my upbringing. i was brought up as a spiritual creature, i need it, i crave it.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

good stuff.

i was brought up christian my entire life, when i did leave it i went to atheism but then went to agnosticism and then to paganism (ancestor and family worship). i think that's a normal process, to go from one extreme to the next before settling back down into spirituality.

i think a lot of my current beliefs come from my upbringing. i was brought up as a spiritual creature, i need it, i crave it.

I wonder why I had the craving, as well; I was brought up to be a good person and went to church on occasion. It wasn't until after I stopped believing (and after my atheist stage) that I started to 'feel' spiritual. Deism was a belief that I felt attracted to, but alas; few Diests here in my town.
I am torn; I do not have the patience to be a buddhist, but I like the teaches; I like the naturalism of wiccans and pagans, but not sure of the accuracy?
Dunno, the pilgramage is beginning it seems.

 

[allsmiles]

I wonder why I had the craving, as well; I was brought up to be a good person and went to church on occasion. It wasn't until after I stopped believing (and after my atheist stage) that I started to 'feel' spiritual. Deism was a belief that I felt attracted to, but alas; few Diests here in my town.
I am torn; I do not have the patience to be a buddhist, but I like the teaches; I like the naturalism of wiccans and pagans, but not sure of the accuracy?
Dunno, the pilgramage is beginning it seems.

i took me a while to land on ancestor and family worship. after a while of searching, i gave up on trying to find something to focus my spiritual energy on... but then it came out of nowhere.

i was going to bed/sofa:chuckle: one night and noticed that my parents had placed a configuration of some rather ancient family photos above the head of my sofa/bed. it was the most spiritual realization i had ever had... family worship... ancestor worship... it was quite profound

at any rate, that's what i've been doing for the past few months and it's wonderful. i can trace my lineage back 6 generations. christians rely on an unprovable perspective on "god" for their personal creation, but my personal creation has real susbstance. i think it's fuller and in the end more rewarding in this life and if my children are brought up right, it will be rewarding in the next life as well

 

[Lovejoy]

You guys seem to be having a good conversation! I would like to submit something to this, but I lack the time right now. I will put this thread in my databanks somewhere and try to get back to it later.

 

[Aimiel]

It wasn't until after I stopped believing (and after my atheist stage) that I started to 'feel' spiritual.

There is great danger in following feelings, rather than trusting The Lord. Feelings will satisfy and will give you what 'seems' right.

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[Nineveh]

But wait a minute; what about me? Don't I believe in reincarnation, Emergence, Theosophy, etc?

Do you?

What does God have to say?

For the time being, but I the great thing is, I have been examining my beliefs as of late

Good!

(which is why I posted here in the first place), and I am at a crossroads:
I CANNOT reconcile my intellect with my "faith". I've tried, but the more I try to more I am drawn toward reasoning and faith is being pushed out.

What exacly is in conflict?

So, how do you do it?

I read the Bible and saw what it was saying fit the reality I see around me. I also saw the church I was attending was in gross error in comparison.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

i took me a while to land on ancestor and family worship. after a while of searching, i gave up on trying to find something to focus my spiritual energy on... but then it came out of nowhere.

Hey, that's what happened to me! I was content just living my life, being a husband, father and crackhead baby killer (ust joking!) when out of nowhere 'it' happened. I felt a weird connection to something other that the tangible, the physical. It would have been indegestion I suppose.

i was going to bed/sofa:chuckle: one night and noticed that my parents had placed a configuration of some rather ancient family photos above the head of my sofa/bed. it was the most spiritual realization i had ever had... family worship... ancestor worship... it was quite profound

Tell me more, please.

at any rate, that's what i've been doing for the past few months and it's wonderful. i can trace my lineage back 6 generations. christians rely on an unprovable perspective on "god" for their personal creation, but my personal creation has real susbstance. i think it's fuller and in the end more rewarding in this life and if my children are brought up right, it will be rewarding in the next life as well

I'd really like to know more; can you recommend any books?

 

[Clete]

EarnestBorg9,

The so-called Christianity you left was, by all appearances, not the true Biblical Christian faith but some twisted and evil facsimile.

Biblical faith is not simple belief at all. In fact I find such an idea to be irrational and repugnant. Biblical faith has to do with acceptance of the substantive evidence or perhaps more accurately it is by faith that we understand what the substantive evidence is telling us.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In fact, nothing at all can be understood apart from faith.

This is a point that I am very much interested in discussing with you. However, I am not interested in discussing it with allsmiles. I've tried and he has proved to be impossible to have an intelligent conversation with in that he makes no effort to understand the point being made and begins almost immediately to simply argue for the sake of arguing. So if you would commit to at least trying to avoid the same behavior, I will be glad to think this through with you but know that I will simply ignore any comment made by allsmiles.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Aimiel]

This is a point that I am very much interested in discussing with you. However, I am not interested in discussing it with allsmiles. I've tried and he has proved to be impossible to have an intelligent conversation with in that he makes no effort to understand the point being made and begins almost immediately to simply argue for the sake of arguing.

So very true!!!

 

[Granite]

I wonder why I had the craving, as well; I was brought up to be a good person and went to church on occasion. It wasn't until after I stopped believing (and after my atheist stage) that I started to 'feel' spiritual. Deism was a belief that I felt attracted to, but alas; few Diests here in my town.
I am torn; I do not have the patience to be a buddhist, but I like the teaches; I like the naturalism of wiccans and pagans, but not sure of the accuracy?
Dunno, the pilgramage is beginning it seems.

Leaving the faith left me hungry for something, anything, to take the place of my former beliefs. I think it's an understandable instinct: when you lose something, you want to replace it. In this respect, though, I don't know if that is necessarily a good thing.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Leaving the faith left me hungry for something, anything, to take the place of my former beliefs. I think it's an understandable instinct: when you lose something, you want to replace it. In this respect, though, I don't know if that is necessarily a good thing.

That's where I am right now, Granite. I 'think' I need something to fill a void tht I 'think' exists; but I am not sure.
As I said, I was not at all bothered by having no spiritual faith. I saw the beauty in a sunset, the joy the discovering new things and just the absolute awe of life! In a weird way, atheism brought be closer to 'god'! By not believing anything supernatural, my spirtual sense (if I have any) was wiped clean.
Now I have a a yearning to search, but I am unsure what I should look for or where I should start.

 

[Granite]

That's where I am right now, Granite. I 'think' I need something to fill a void tht I 'think' exists; but I am not sure.
As I said, I was not at all bothered by having no spiritual faith. I saw the beauty in a sunset, the joy the discovering new things and just the absolute awe of life! In a weird way, atheism brought be closer to 'god'! By not believing anything supernatural, my spirtual sense (if I have any) was wiped clean.
Now I have a a yearning to search, but I am unsure what I should look for or where I should start.

I have felt far more at ease, at peace, and "spiritual" since I left the faith. I can definitely relate. As far as the search...hey, I've resigned myself to "seeking" or "searching" for the rest of my life, but that's more a restless intellectual curiosity than anything else.

Have you noticed that without Christianity you're more stirred to look deeper at things than you did before?:think:

 

[EarnestBorg9]

EarnestBorg9,

The so-called Christianity you left was, by all appearances, not the true Biblical Christian faith but some twisted and evil facsimile.

I was wondering when someone was going to day this.
I never said that when I believed that I was miserable or fed a bunch of lies; I just didn't feel like it was relevant any longer. But how can you or anyone else challange my faith, when I used to believe or the people that led me to the Lord? How can I distiguish between True Christianity and I Can't Believe it's not Christianity?

Biblical faith is not simple belief at all. In fact I find such an idea to be irrational and repugnant. Biblical faith has to do with acceptance of the substantive evidence or perhaps more accurately it is by faith that we understand what the substantive evidence is telling us.

But if faith (the faith to believe in the True God) is a gift, why would it be so hard to understand and put into practice? If faith is based on evidence, then I should be able to test it, shouldn't I? How would I do that?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In fact, nothing at all can be understood apart from faith.

Nothing? Surely you don't mean 'nothing', but maybe nothing in True Christianity?

This is a point that I am very much interested in discussing with you. However, I am not interested in discussing it with allsmiles. I've tried and he has proved to be impossible to have an intelligent conversation with in that he makes no effort to understand the point being made and begins almost immediately to simply argue for the sake of arguing. So if you would commit to at least trying to avoid the same behavior, I will be glad to think this through with you but know that I will simply ignore any comment made by allsmiles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss faith or anything else, but if I have a question I will ask it, and if it seems I am being argumentative, then I apologize in advance. It's just that if I see a flaw in someone's reasoning I want to make sure it's a flaw! I am certainly not above admitting when I am wrong (and have done so in another thread), but if you can explain faith in a way that makes sense, I'd love to hear it, because I just cannot reconcile Christianity and reason.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I have felt far more at ease, at peace, and "spiritual" since I left the faith. I can definitely relate. As far as the search...hey, I've resigned myself to "seeking" or "searching" for the rest of my life, but that's more a restless intellectual curiosity than anything else.

Have you noticed that without Christianity you're more stirred to look deeper at things than you did before?:think:

Yeah, I can relate. I have looked into so many other beliefs, philosophies and religions, and I believe in some more than others, but extracting that which is real is more of a chore than I thought.
But yes, I do have the freedom to look into things and discover a different point of view than before.

 

[allsmiles]

Hey, that's what happened to me! I was content just living my life, being a husband, father and crackhead baby killer (ust joking!) when out of nowhere 'it' happened. I felt a weird connection to something other that the tangible, the physical. It would have been indegestion I suppose.

there's something there, it's not capable of being identified directly in human terms. we need physical elements, tangible elements to represent what we cannot comprehend... i find that the best elements of reality to bring us closer to "god" or the incomprehensible life source which is in all, surrounds all and is all things is to use ones ancestors and family. i came from my lineage, i am part of my lineage, it surrounds me, it has created me. i can see it, feel it, hear it... it requires no faith.

do you know anything about hinduism? they're very good at acknowledging that despite the amount of symbols and depictions of their pantheon, they are only symbols and are not direct or accurate representations of the mysteries of the divine.

Tell me more, please.

i've got a funky little ritual and little ceremonies i do in the face of family photographs... like my grandfather... the Colonel.

i need to buy some spirit money... not sure where to find it though.

this is one of the main reasons why i do not want to be cremated. i want to be buried with all of my stuff, i want my children and their children and their children's children to venerate me. i need to give them plenty of reasons for them to venerate me.

I'd really like to know more; can you recommend any books?

actually, i don't rely on what other people think to discover a perspective on the mysteries of the divine. in the realm of the divine the only valid perspective is ones' own.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

there's something there, it's not capable of being identified directly in human terms. we need physical elements, tangible elements to represent what we cannot comprehend... i find that the best elements of reality to bring us closer to "god" or the incomprehensible life source which is in all, surrounds all and is all things is to use ones ancestors and family. i came from my lineage, i am part of my lineage, it surrounds me, it has created me. i can see it, feel it, hear it... it requires no faith.

do you know anything about hinduism? they're very good at acknowledging that despite the amount of symbols and depictions of their pantheon, they are only symbols and are not direct or accurate representations of the mysteries of the divine.

Man, this is really close to what I was believing; it troubled me because I had no direction, but in some sense I felt direction, inwardly. Does your family believe this way and do you discuss it? You see, I am alone, but I'm sure my wife and son would be on board if I could explain it. We all like Buddhism and Hinduism, but lack the temples and support (fellowship) of like minded believers. Theosophy is a clearer understanding of 'it', although Theosophists tend to drop the rituals and symbolism.

i've got a funky little ritual and little ceremonies i do in the face of family photographs... like my grandfather... the Colonel.

Not to get too personal, but what do rituals actually do? Is there any inherent benefit or is it symbolic?

i need to buy some spirit money... not sure where to find it though.

You lost me here

actually, i don't rely on what other people think to discover a perspective on the mysteries of the divine. in the realm of the divine the only valid perspective is ones' own.

You see, I feel this way too, but it seemed like I was 'making stuff up', you know?
Thanks for the replies, this sounds like what I was looking for. Deism was close, in that I have always felt close to nature.
Are you considered a Pagan, and if so, can you let me know of a primer or something to get started?

 

[allsmiles]

Man, this is really close to what I was believing; it troubled me because I had no direction, but in some sense I felt direction, inwardly.

not having a direction isn't a bad thing... it's a good thing not having direction is having direction... there's the yin and yang again... the dualism... you see it everywhere, the black and white, god and satan, ahura mazda and angra mainyu, when you meet Buddha on the road, KILL HIM! you can't get away from it man, it doesn't matter how hard they hit you on the head with a 2000 year old book.

Does your family believe this way and do you discuss it? You see, I am alone, but I'm sure my wife and son would be on board if I could explain it. We all like Buddhism and Hinduism, but lack the temples and support (fellowship) of like minded believers. Theosophy is a clearer understanding of 'it', although Theosophists tend to drop the rituals and symbolism.

my family isn't on to this yet, i think my dad's getting close. except for here i keep it to myself, i wait until everyone is in bed before i start my "rituals". not having a community can be rough. i lost a lot of friends when i rejected christianity.

Not to get too personal, but what do rituals actually do? Is there any inherent benefit or is it symbolic?

not sure if the rituals have a metaphysical effect at all. i have a strong sense that my ancestors are watching... could be wrong of course (admitting the possibility of being wrong is important, you won't find that much around here) , but i feel it.

You lost me here

spirit money is exactly what is sounds like. it's chinese in origin i believe... it's money, oftentimes in the tens and hundreds of thousands that you burn for your ancestors so they have currency in the afterlife. it's also called Hell Notes, but the chinese were only introduced to hell through christians.

I feel this way too, but it seemed like I was 'making stuff up', you know?

making it up is the way to go! that's what the writers of the bible did! that's what the writers of the avesta and the vedas did! every spiritual creature should have their own bible. no one can teach you about god but yourself, you won't learn it from a pastor, and you can't teach it to your children. you have to experience it for yourself, and if you don't, you don't, that's fine, because there's nothing in reality that dictates that "god" even requires acknowledgement.

Thanks for the replies, this sounds like what I was looking for. Deism was close, in that I have always felt close to nature.
Are you considered a Pagan, and if so, can you let me know of a primer or something to get started?

you're very welcome, and it's a pleasure to meet someone here who doesn't think i'm a total loser for what i believe. feel free to think i'm a total loser because of the way i act

and yes, i do consider myself a pagan, but i think anyone who believes in some form of a higher power is a pagan, that goes for christians too.