ECT Isaiah 1:18 . . How would you teach it?

patrick jane

patrick jane

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Cross Reference said:
That's interesting, Patrick. What, from the verse, persuades you to believe that.
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It's making the distinction and showing the spectrum, from dirty to clean, from stained to pure, from red to pure white, It takes a slight bit of reasoning, which is how he starts - Let us reason together.

Now, that is the verse by itself, not in context, yet it has the same meaning for Israel.
 
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Calvin is instructive on the passage:

Spoiler

The Hebrew word נא (na) is commonly translated I pray, or therefore; but I think that it denotes the confidence of a good cause, and thus is an exhortation, Come. For the Lord declares that the Jews will have nothing, to reply, and that, even though they obtain an opportunity of clearing themselves, they will still be speechless. And certainly this is the way in which hypocrites ought to be treated; for they boldly enter into disputes with God, and there is no end of their reasonings. Accordingly, he tells them that, if they choose to debate, he will be equally prepared on the other side.

The question will perhaps be put, Why does the Prophet speak chiefly about the second table of the law, and not rather about the worship of God? For we know that there were good reasons why God assigned the foremost place to the first table, when he divided the law; and there can be no doubt that, as it comes first in order, so it is likewise of greater importance. I reply, when the Prophets reprove the hypocrisy of men, they employ various modes of address. Sometimes they complain that the Sabbath has been profaned; sometimes they say that men do not call on God; but for the most part they censure idolatry, and raise their voice against superstitions. But here Isaiah complains that their duties towards their neighbors have not been performed.

Still in all these cases the object is the same, to show that our actions are of no value in the sight of God, when they do not proceed from a good conscience, and when we are destitute of the fear of God. This fear they sometimes denote by “calling on the name of God,” sometimes by “keeping the Sabbath,” and sometimes by other actions; but as the distinction between true worship and hypocrisy is most clearly and manifestly pointed out by means of the duties of brotherly kindness, there are good reasons why the mention of those duties is brought forward by Isaiah. For hypocrites are careful to perform outward worship and ceremonies; but inwardly they are full of envy, they swell with pride and contempt of the brethren, they burn with covetousness and ambition; and while they conceal themselves under those masks, they cannot easily be detected. They must, therefore, be tried by this rule, as by a touchstone, and thus it must be ascertained whether or not they fear God.

We might, indeed, be deceived, were it from the second table only that we formed our judgment about the godliness of a man; but if any one discharge the duties of the first table, which are evidences of godliness and of the worship of God, he must then be brought to this standard, Does he act inoffensively towards other men? Does he abstain from every act of injustice? Does he speak truth? Does he live in the exercise of kindness to his brethren? This is the reason why Christ pronounces mercy, judgment, and faith, to be the weighty matters of the law, (Matthew 23:23,) and censures the Pharisees because, in their eagerness about tithes and offerings, they attended only to smaller matters, and neglected true righteousness. By faith he means fidelity, or what we commonly call loyalty. By judgment he means every kind of uprightness, when we render to every man what belongs to him, and do not allow others to be injured, but assist them, as far as lies in our power.

But if these are the weighty matters of the law, in what order ought we to place the commandments of the second table? I answer, they retain their due importance and order; but by means of those duties which Christ so rigidly demands, and on which he dwells so largely, hypocrisy is more fully detected, and we are better enabled to judge whether a man sincerely fears God or not. In the same sense ought we to understand that passage,I will have mercy and not sacrifice; (Hosea 6:6; Matthew 9:13) for mercy is an evidence and proof of true godliness. Again, it is pleasing to God, because it is a true demonstration of the love which we owe to our fellow-men; but sacrifices are pleasing to him for a different reason. It is now, I think, sufficiently plain why the Prophet Isaiah mentions kindness rather than faith or calling upon God; and why the prophets employ such variety in their modes of address, when they endeavor to bring back hypocrites to the true worship of God, and when they bid them show it by its fruits.

Though your sins be as scarlet It is as if he had said, that he does not accuse innocent persons, and has no wish to enter into controversy; so that the charges which he makes against them are not brought forward or maintained without strong necessity. For hypocrites are wont to find fault with God, as if he were too severe, and could not be at all appeased. They go still farther, and discover this excuse for their obstinacy, that it is in vain for them to attempt to return to a state of favor with God. If every other expedient fail, still they fly to this, that it is not proper to make such rigid demands on them, and that even the very best of men have something that needs to be forgiven. The Prophet anticipates the objection, by introducing the Lord speaking ill this manner — “For my part, if it be necessary, I do not refuse to dispute with you; for the result will be to show that it is your own obstinacy which prevents a reconciliation from taking place between us. Only bring cleanness of heart, and all controversy between us will be at an end. I would no longer contend with you, if you would bring me an upright heart.”

Hence we obtain a declaration in the highest degree consolatory, that God does not contend with us as if he wished to pursue our offenses to the utmost. For if we sincerely turn to him, he will immediately return to favor with us, and will blot out all remembrance of our sins, and will not demand an account of them. For he is not like men who, even for a slight and inconsiderable offense, often refuse to be reconciled. Nay, so far is he from giving us reason to complain of his excessive severity, that he is ready to cleanse us, and to make us as white as snow. He is satisfied With cleanness of heart, and if, notwithstanding of this cleanness of heart, there be any offense, he forgives it, and acquits those who have provoked him.


AMR
 
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patrick jane said:
It's making the distinction and showing the spectrum, from dirty to clean, from stained to pure, from red to pure white, It takes a slight bit of reasoning, which is how he starts - Let us reason together.

Now, that is the verse by itself, not in context, yet it has the same meaning for Israel.
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I think we can agree this verse is not a messianic prophecy.

That said: Would not God's request for "reasoning" make more sense if God was speaking of Israel's sin as being as leprosy and was already in the scarlet red stage, soon to be white?

Here's the whole context:

"16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 1:16-20 (KJV)
 
Nick M

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Cross Reference said:
Does it matter since sin is a universal issue?
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Israel will be saved as a group. "ye" is plural indicating "you all" in a direct way. They will be dead to sin in the future, like the Body of Christ is today.

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

It is taught as it is presented. A future event for Israel.
 
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theophilus said:
Yes.

There are covenants with Israel that haven't reached completion. There ARE things in Scripture that are solely theirs.

This is one of them.
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SO WHAT??!! It is NOT a covenant issue!

Is sin or leprosy exclusive to Israel?? Is God's reasonableness exclusive to Israel???

The analogy is how sin relates to leprosy. What's your problem???! Or do you just need to be right?!
 
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Cross Reference said:
Is God's reasonableness exclusive to Israel???
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Gentiles aligned with Israel would also be blessed. The whole world could be included in the resurrection told in Ezekiel 37 and John 3. But the whole world was not because some cursed Israel and some were strangers to the covenant given to Israel.

Then came the Body of Christ not revealed in prophecy.
 
theophilus

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Cross Reference said:
SO WHAT??!! It is NOT a covenant issue!

Is sin or leprosy exclusive to Israel?? Is God's reasonableness exclusive to Israel???

The analogy is how sin relates to leprosy. What's your problem???! Or do you just need to be right?!
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I wasn't brought out of 400 years of slavery in Egypt. I wasn't commanded to celebrate Passover. I am not commanded to circumcise my sons. I don't have to appear before the Lord in Jerusalem 3 times a year.

FWIW...as a woman there are a LOT of things I'm not "on the hook" for. :)

There ARE words in Scripture that belong to Israel exclusively...for example: the oracles of God. Rom. 3:1-4

Understand?

And just so you know...a text without a context is a pretext waiting to be proof-texted.

Me not going THERE.
 
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Danoh

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Cross Reference said:
Does it matter since sin is a universal issue?
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Sin (transgression out of rebellion) IS a universal issue.

That IS a universal Principle.

While, what determines what is a trangression is a Dispensational issue - who, what, when, where, why, and how...

Note the Principle BUT ALSO the Dispensational Rule of Thumb...

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Case in point of many that could be cited - Gen. 9:3 IN CONTRAST TO Lev. 11:3, and that, in turn, IN CONTRAST TO 1 Tim. 4:4.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Leviticus 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Where does Isaiah 1:18 fit within all this as to who, what, when, where, why, and how - well, since he wrote it; why don't we just ask him?

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Let's ask another witness as to who Isaiah was taking about...

Hmm; what Principle is that?

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

What say you, Apostle Paul?

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

In short, Isaiah's issue is that of Israel under the Law...

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Isaiah 43:22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 43:23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 43:26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. 43:27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. 43:28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.
 
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theophilus said:
And one more thing (for now) CR...James 1:19.

You get too upset too quickly.

Chill.

God loves you and Jesus died for you.
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Not without reason am I frustrated with having to explain the obvious because some would rather see something else they might wish to pick fly c... out of pepper in order just to be disagreeable.

In this case, you [as with many others] seem to make a practice of contradicting out of the desire to protect your own ideas about the exclusiveness of Israel. Without realizing it, you are ignoring the fact that todays Christian is going down the same path as Israel of old and with much of the same warnings from God given to us as was given to them in the OT. Learn that it isn't necessary to cherry pick scripture when learning the ways of God. All scripture is given for reproof and correction and building up in the faith of God and the learning of His ways. So when someone says that doesn't apply because God was speaking to Israel, know that in most all God says to them is also meant for us who are called by by His Name. In this, Israel might be seen as a type.
 
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