Is the modern Church scriptural?

[Moskee]

Matthew 23:8-10 says: "But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ."

But in just about every church of any denomination, you have a structure where a person gets up on stage and "teaches" everyone else. They might read off one or two verses of scripture, but the rest is their own opinion.

In the old synagogues, didn't they use to just read scripture? Wasn't that the bulk of the service? Wouldn't that be a better alternative to the way we do things today? Instead of an hour or so listening to someone's opinion, how about an hour or so of actual scripture?

One thing that probably needs to be mentioned; from what I've seen, the majority of folks in Church have a fairly limited familiarity with scripture, even though there is really nothing preventing their study of it. I'm not sure if pastors are just wrongly assuming that people in Church are avid studyers of scripture, or if they are just doing what they were taught in seminary. Either way, it seems logical that until the majority is at the 400 level, we don't start doing independent study. Rather, since most folks are at the 100/200 level, we should probably be focusing on mastery of the material. Unless the reality is that those in the position don't really want their congregations to achieve mastery, as it might affect their control, but I really hope that's not the case.

Am I wrong here? I'd like to hear from some pastors what their opinions are.

 

[Tambora]

But in just about every church of any denomination, you have a structure where a person gets up on stage and "teaches" everyone else. They might read off one or two verses of scripture, but the rest is their own opinion.

I think you are referring to the standard structured Sunday morning sermon.
Most churches have much more going on than just that.
There are many other avenues in the church one can participate in.
Sunday school classes.
Bible study classes.
Youth ministry.
Counseling.
Outreach missions.
etc.

But yes, you will find some that seem to be geared more towards status, entertainment, and agenda. Some much more brazen than others.

Keep your chin up, there are decent churches.
You have to keep in mind that all churches are full of sinners, including the pastor.
Which is a good reason why the apostle Paul tells us it is a noble thing to verify what anyone has told you with the scriptures themselves. (Acts 17:11)

 

[Moskee]

Tambora,

I get what you're saying, and I agree. The Church is made up of people who are born into sin, so patience and love is necessary, as in all things.

However, I guess I'm questioning what you're taking for granted. Notice how you mention classes and counseling, almost everything you mention has the underlying pretense that someone is going to "teach" me (or my kids) something. And that's my point - that's exactly what Christ himself said not to do.

Right?

 

[meshak]

Tambora,

I get what you're saying, and I agree. The Church is made up of people who are born into sin, so patience and love is necessary, as in all things.

However, I guess I'm questioning what you're taking for granted. Notice how you mention classes and counseling, almost everything you mention has the underlying pretense that someone is going to "teach" me (or my kids) something. And that's my point - that's exactly what Christ himself said not to do.

Right?

You are right, Jesus is the Teacher.

 

[KingdomRose]

Matthew 23:8-10 says: "But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ."

But in just about every church of any denomination, you have a structure where a person gets up on stage and "teaches" everyone else. They might read off one or two verses of scripture, but the rest is their own opinion.

In the old synagogues, didn't they use to just read scripture? Wasn't that the bulk of the service? Wouldn't that be a better alternative to the way we do things today? Instead of an hour or so listening to someone's opinion, how about an hour or so of actual scripture?

One thing that probably needs to be mentioned; from what I've seen, the majority of folks in Church have a fairly limited familiarity with scripture, even though there is really nothing preventing their study of it. I'm not sure if pastors are just wrongly assuming that people in Church are avid studyers of scripture, or if they are just doing what they were taught in seminary. Either way, it seems logical that until the majority is at the 400 level, we don't start doing independent study. Rather, since most folks are at the 100/200 level, we should probably be focusing on mastery of the material. Unless the reality is that those in the position don't really want their congregations to achieve mastery, as it might affect their control, but I really hope that's not the case.

Am I wrong here? I'd like to hear from some pastors what their opinions are.

I think you are VERY right. And to answer your original question: No, the modern church is far from scriptural. Jesus wouldn't recognize any Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Quaker or Mormon church if he was to walk into any of them today, for various reasons. You mentioned some of those reasons.

We are to study the scriptures, as Jesus did even as a boy. If people are not encouraged to do so, the religious leaders that are supposed to be teaching them are not doing their job. It is true---the clergy aim to keep control of their flocks. Only in the last generation have Catholics, for example, been encouraged to read the Bible. How could they not, now, because other groups are having "Bible Studies." But I'm pretty sure that the ideas of, for example, calling someone "Reverend" or "Father" is made excuses for by the clergy of all the "Christian" denominations, even though Jesus expressly forbids it.

Jesus certainly wouldn't recognize the lavish, expensive buildings of the various churches today, covered in gold and precious stones and marble, etc. The early Christians used to meet in members' homes, and have the scriptures read. Afterward, I feel confident, they probably discussed the scriptures that were read. No rote questions and answers, no genuflecting, and certainly no passing the basket (or plate)!

 

[meshak]

You are right, Jesus is the Teacher.

When the church have bible classes, what they are doing is to push their own understanding.

 

[KingdomRose]

I think you are referring to the standard structured Sunday morning sermon.
Most churches have much more going on than just that.
There are many other avenues in the church one can participate in.
Sunday school classes.
Bible study classes.
Youth ministry.
Counseling.
Outreach missions.
etc.

But yes, you will find some that seem to be geared more towards status, entertainment, and agenda. Some much more brazen than others.

Keep your chin up, there are decent churches.
You have to keep in mind that all churches are full of sinners, including the pastor.
Which is a good reason why the apostle Paul tells us it is a noble thing to verify what anyone has told you with the scriptures themselves. (Acts 17:11)

Paul also says to stop associating with ANYONE who does not act in accordance with the Scriptures. That would include the so-called Pastor. (A fancy title does not give anyone carte blanche to do whatever they please, a la Koresh and Jones, for example.)

"Now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolator or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man....Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (I Corinthians 5:11,13)


"Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as it befits holy people; neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. For you know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy person---which means being an idolator---has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God." (Ephesians 5:3-5)


Why would we put up with a priest or a pastor that did the things Paul described? Aren't ALL of Christ's disciples supposed to act in a manner that is becoming of a Christian? Don't be deceived....keep on the look-out for wolves in sheeps' clothing. (Matthew 7:15-18)