Is It True That Regeneration Precedes Faith?

[Jerry Shugart]

Well known Calvinist author R.C. Sproul wrote that "regeneration precedes faith":

"One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: 'Regeneration Precedes Faith.' These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning.​

According to Sproul a person is regenerated or made alive by the spirit PRIOR to believing. However, the following words of the Lord Jesus contradict that idea:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

When a person is born again at that time he is made alive by the spirit and we can understand that happens when a person believes the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

How would a Calvinist answer these verses?

 

[OZOS]

The Bible is explicitly clear that regeneration does not precede faith.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:13

"It is the Spirit that gives life" John 6:63

Paul reveals to us that before we receive the Holy Spirit (who dwells in every member of the Body) and gives us life (salvation) we must first hear the word of truth (gospel) and then believe what we heard (faith comes by hearing).

R.C. Sproul is a false teacher. Calvinism is a false religion.

 

[beloved57]

js

Is It True That Regeneration Precedes Faith?

Actually its New Birth precedes Faith, since Faith is a Spiritual Fruit Gal 5:22, hence how can one in the flesh, a natural man, have faith ? He must be born again first !

 

[beloved57]

The Bible is explicitly clear that regeneration does not precede faith.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:13

"It is the Spirit that gives life" John 6:63

Paul reveals to us that before we receive the Holy Spirit (who dwells in every member of the Body) and gives us life (salvation) we must first hear the word of truth (gospel) and then believe what we heard (faith comes by hearing).

R.C. Sproul is a false teacher. Calvinism is a false religion.

Problem is, man naturally cannot hear the words of God Jn 8:43,47

⁴³ Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. He means hear spiritually

⁴⁷ He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So one must be of God in order to hear Gods word. Of God means Born of God, the Spirit.

 

[OZOS]

Problem is, man naturally cannot hear the words of God Jn 8:43,47

⁴³ Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. He means hear spiritually

⁴⁷ He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So one must be of God in order to hear Gods word. Of God means Born of God, the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 refutes your poor exegesis of John 8

Faith comes by hearing. Hearing first, then faith. Simple.

 

[beloved57]

Eph 1:13 refutes your poor exegesis of John 8

Faith comes by hearing. Hearing first, then faith. Simple.

It only refutes in your imagination. Eph 1:13 says that they heard the word of truth, hence the hearing was Spiritual, so they had been born of the Spirit previously to have hear the word of truth, thats obvious !

 

[beloved57]

Eph 1:13 refutes your poor exegesis of John 8

Faith comes by hearing. Hearing first, then faith. Simple.

In fact Eph 1:13 refutes you and supports me !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

js


Actually its New Birth precedes Faith, since Faith is a Spiritual Fruit Gal 5:22, hence how can one in the flesh, a natural man, have faith ? He must be born again first !

How is a person born again?:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

A person is not born again until he believes the word of God, specifically the gospel.

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

 

[beloved57]

How is a person born again?:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

A person is not born again until he believes the word of God, specifically the gospel.

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

By the Spirit of God. A person cannot hear the word of God unless they are of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Problem is, man naturally cannot hear the words of God Jn 8:43,47

So the gospel by itself is impotent even though it comes in power and in much assurance and in the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).​

You got to be kidding!

 

[beloved57]

Jerry

A person is not born again until he believes the word of God, specifically the gospel.

No scripture says that! You can not believe what you can't hear.

 

[beloved57]

Izos

"It is the Spirit that gives life" John 6:63

That's true but it doesn't help your point at all. It gives credence to mine instead. One must be quickened into life by the Spirit before they can hear and believe Spiritual things!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

By the Spirit of God. A person cannot hear the word of God unless they are of God.

If a person is already spiritually alive then it is impossible that believing the word would bring spiritual life to anyone. However, the Lord Jesus Himself said that His words are spirit and they are life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Please tell me how His word can bring spiritual life to those who are already spiritually alive. Don't you know that before anyone can be made alive spiritually that person must be spiritually dead?

 

[beloved57]

If a person is already spiritually alive then it is impossible that believing the word would bring spiritual life to anyone. However, the Lord Jesus Himself said that His words are spirit and they are life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Please tell me how His word can bring spiritual life to those who are already spiritually alive. Don't you know that before anyone can be made alive spiritually that person must be spiritually dead?

Jesus words are spiritual and life that is why you have to be Spiritual to hear them. Jesus says he that is of God hears God's words. He also said he can't hear God's words. I gave references already.

 

[OZOS]

It only refutes in your imagination. Eph 1:13 says that they heard the word of truth, hence the hearing was Spiritual, so they had been born of the Spirit previously to have hear the word of truth, thats obvious !

:crackup: You just made that up, You have to, because to believe the Bible, you must reject Calvin.

Eph 1:13 emphatically states that hearing is first, and you assume that one must be saved to hear. The Bible does not teach that anywhere. The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe, not those who have been given the Holy Spirit become believers. :crackup:

Calvinism is a doctrine of demons, and those who teach reformed theology are not in the faith. They are without hope. YOU are hopeless and stupid. :crackup:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus words are spiritual and life that is why you have to be Spiritual to hear them. Jesus says he that is of God hears God's words. He also said he can't hear God's words. I gave references already.

You never answered my point. According to your idea a person is made alive spiritually before believing the gospel. Please tell me how His word can bring spiritual life to those who are already spiritually alive. Don't you know that before anyone can be made alive spiritually that person must be spiritually dead?

Evidently not!

According to your ideas believing the Lord Jesus' words brings spiritual life to those who are already spiritually alive.

You have no common sense and your spiritual I.Q. is practically nonexistent!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well known Calvinist author R.C. Sproul wrote that "regeneration precedes faith"

If you swap the word "Regeneration" with "Conviction of SIN and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit", you get closer to the truth of the matter. NOBODY comes to Christ without BEING DRAWN to Him by the Father, and "Conviction of SIN" is the beginning of FAITH - since you KNOW that God's THERE, that HE WANTS SOMETHING OF YOU, and that you've FALLEN SHORT of His requirements for you.

"REgeneration is the "Calvinist's "Work arouond" for their "Total Dapravity" theology. But the TRUTH is that NO CONVICTION OF SIN = NO CONVERSION.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you swap the word "Regeneration" with "Conviction of SIN and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit", you get closer to the truth of the matter. NOBODY comes to Christ without BEING DRAWN to Him by the Father, and "Conviction of SIN" is the beginning of FAITH - since you KNOW that God's THERE, that HE WANTS SOMETHING OF YOU, and that you've FALLEN SHORT of His requirements for you.

"REgeneration is the "Calvinist's "Work arouond" for their "Total Dapravity" theology. But the TRUTH is that NO CONVICTION OF SIN = NO CONVERSION.

EXACTLY!

Even those who are spiritually dead have within them a self-assessment which often produces remorse or other negative feelings such as guilt and shame. In the following passage Paul speaks of a person's "conscience" which bears witness to the law written in the heart of all people, even those who are spiritually dead:

"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them" (Ro.2:14-15).​

John Calvin said the following about these words of Paul:

"They have then a law, though they are without law: for though they have not a written law, they are yet by no means wholly destitute of the knowledge of what is right and just; as they could not otherwise distinguish between vice and virtue; the first of which they restrain by punishment, and the latter they commend, and manifest their approbation of it by honoring it with rewards. He sets nature in opposition to a written law, meaning that the Gentiles had the natural light of righteousness, which supplied the place of that law by which the Jews were instructed, so that they were a law to themselves."​

In the following verse Paul speaks about preaching the gospel in such a way that "everyone's conscience" bears witness that it is true:

"But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God" (2 Cor.4:2).​

Albert Barnes wrote, "the consciences of people are on the side of truth, and the gospel may be so preached as to enlist their consciences in its favor. Conscience prompts to do right, and condemns us if we do wrong. It can never be made to approve of wrong, never to give a man peace if he does that which he knows to be evil... They approve of it as a just, pure, holy, and reasonable system; as in accordance with what they feel to be right; as recommending that which ought to be done, and forbidding that which ought not to be done."

In his commentary on this verse John Calvin wrote that "He [Paul] claims to himself this praise--that he had proclaimed the pure doctrine of the gospel in simplicity and without disguise, and has the consciences of all as witnesses of this in the sight of God."

In The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges we read that "The individual conscience is, and always must be, the ultimate tribunal to which all teaching must appeal, and St Paul assumes that in it there resides a faculty of appreciating and acknowledging truth."

 

[beloved57]

:crackup: You just made that up, You have to, because to believe the Bible, you must reject Calvin.

Eph 1:13 emphatically states that hearing is first, and you assume that one must be saved to hear. The Bible does not teach that anywhere. The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe, not those who have been given the Holy Spirit become believers. :crackup:

Calvinism is a doctrine of demons, and those who teach reformed theology are not in the faith. They are without hope. YOU are hopeless and stupid. :crackup:

You must have spiritual ears to hear, sorry.

 

[beloved57]

You never answered my point. According to your idea a person is made alive spiritually before believing the gospel. Please tell me how His word can bring spiritual life to those who are already spiritually alive. Don't you know that before anyone can be made alive spiritually that person must be spiritually dead?

Evidently not!

According to your ideas believing the Lord Jesus' words brings spiritual life to those who are already spiritually alive.

You have no common sense and your spiritual I.Q. is practically nonexistent!

Yes a person cannot believe until he can hear. I'm not talking about hearing with the natural ear but a spiritual hearing from a spiritual ears. That comes by new birth by the Spirit.