"Indiscriminate" Torah Scholars needed for a linked OP

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Calling all unbiased Torah scholars for assistance with the following thread.

Does Romans 7:1-3 affirm different rules for women and men regarding Adultry

Note... You must not be carrying a denominational agenda or condemning tone, if you desire to contribute. This is a scripture based study and the moderator of the OP is a relentless searcher with no margin of tolerance for extra-biblical verbiage.

All spammers or negative posters that feel inclined to address this thread as a joke or something to utilize as a personal attack on the OP author will be harshly addressed.

Thank you
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Pertinent discussion to bring all takers directly into this prepared.

According to Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov, there is one rule for women and another for men.

For women:
If a legally married woman has sexual relations with any man other than her husband, she is guilty of adultery and by proxy makes her partner guilty of adultery as well.

For men:
If a married man has sexual relations with a single woman that is not adultery...


Astonishing.

I am not accepting his assertion. However, if he is an Orthodox Jew and he is committed to Torah study, his assertion would be more accurate in description of Torah matters. The divide would come in when Jesus is added to this equation. Much deliberation goes into the meaning of the Torah through the eyes of the New Testament believer. There is much infighting on these matters among New Testament believers.

I will assert that the orthodox, Jewish perspective would be more accurate in reference to Torah revelation.

Unfortunately, your OP is relegated to New Testament matters by cited scripture. This means the infighting and discussion to solve this puzzle must take place for the purpose of gathering a more accurate sample of understanding from New Testament believers.

After going back and reading the previous posts, I can see that you have no solid answers to draw from. The best I could do is begin to express the various New Testament beliefs on this matter.

Would that help at all?

[MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION],

I'm reposting the scripture.

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.

3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

This is your focus in this OP, so in conjunction with the previous quote from the orthodox gentleman (assuming he was), we are now led to study the cited scripture.

Matthew 19:9 would be incongruous with Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov's position.

You make an excellent point. Note that Jesus directly addresses Adultry on the sermon on the mount and in the dialogue with religious hypocrites. Also, He was confronted with a freshly caught adulterous by religious hypocrites.

But it begs the question - if Jesus's assertion is correct, then why isn't it explicitly affirmed in the OT?

From the 613 Mitzvot perspective, this would be true.

Perhaps it is.

Are we embarking on a Torah study?


Smiling... will you leave no stone unturned? It will take some time for me to reply.

Then study the Torah we will, my good friend.

Please do - and others too...perhaps Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov will come back.
 

daqq

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Oh sure... I ask for Tora Scholars and @daqq totally ignores it.

# Loudly clearing theoat

Hi EE, nice to meet you, but I do not claim to be a Torah scholar, and:

All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Matthew 11:13).

So then, Torah was not even fully enacted until Messiah came and fully expounded it.
Do you see how this is going to anger just about everyone in such a place as this? Even the YEC's?
Nearly every O/T paradigm around here just got obliterated; and those are not my words. :)
 

daqq

Well-known member
Hi EE, nice to meet you, but I do not claim to be a Torah scholar, and:

All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Matthew 11:13).

So then, Torah was not even fully enacted until Messiah came and fully expounded it.
Do you see how this is going to anger just about everyone in such a place as this? Even the YEC's?
Nearly every O/T paradigm around here just got obliterated; and those are not my words. :)

Also, EE, one may likewise read this as an elipsis, (often used in English language too).

All the Prophets and [all] the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Matthew 11:13).

And that is precisely what Yeshua teaches in that passage because he quotes not Malachi 3:1, but Exodus 23:20, and clearly emphatically states that it speaks of Yohanan, despite what all the commentaries and commentators like to imagine, (Matthew 11:10). So then, Yohanan is the Malak-Messenger-Angel of Exodus 23:20-23 according to Yeshua. How then can Torah be "abolished" or "rendered ineffective" if it was not even fully enacted until Golgotha? This is precisely what the sages always believed and taught about Meshiah, that is, that when Meshiah would come he would expound all things, especially the Torah, and that the Torah would be transformed, (like Enoch was transformed, not abolished, even as the author of Hebrews uses the same words for the transformation of the Torah which he uses for the transformation-translation of Enoch). And the author of the fourth Gospel teaches the same concerning Yohanan the Immerser in John 1:6-7, saying, "There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was Yohanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe." The thrust of my point initially here is that it is very difficult to argue my positions in a supposedly Christian atmosphere when most do not actually fully believe the full Testimony of Yeshua, (and at the same time neither do I claim to be a Torah scholar, and therefore I did not initially respond to your thread, although I did see it, :)).
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Also, EE, one may likewise read this as an elipsis, (often used in English language too).

All the Prophets and [all] the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Matthew 11:13).

And that is precisely what Yeshua teaches in that passage because he quotes not Malachi 3:1, but Exodus 23:20, and clearly emphatically states that it speaks of Yohanan, despite what all the commentaries and commentators like to imagine, (Matthew 11:10). So then, Yohanan is the Malak-Messenger-Angel of Exodus 23:20-23 according to Yeshua. How then can Torah be "abolished" or "rendered ineffective" if it was not even fully enacted until Golgotha? This is precisely what the sages always believed and taught about Meshiah, that is, that when Meshiah would come he would expound all things, especially the Torah, and that the Torah would be transformed, (like Enoch was transformed, not abolished, even as the author of Hebrews uses the same words for the transformation of the Torah which he uses for the transformation-translation of Enoch). And the author of the fourth Gospel teaches the same concerning Yohanan the Immerser in John 1:6-7, saying, "There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was Yohanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe." The thrust of my point initially here is that it is very difficult to argue my positions in a supposedly Christian atmosphere when most do not actually fully believe the full Testimony of Yeshua, (and at the same time neither do I claim to be a Torah scholar, and therefore I did not initially respond to your thread, although I did see it, :)).

If you get a chance, your perspective would broaden the knowledge base. : )
It's OP author is searching all possible avenues of discussion and perspective.
 

daqq

Well-known member
If you get a chance, your perspective would broaden the knowledge base. : )
It's OP author is searching all possible avenues of discussion and perspective.

It begins, imo, with an understanding that Torah speaks of many, many things, by way of allegories, idioms, proverbs, parables, and sayings. Perhaps much like the following statement:

If you desire to grasp more of the bigger picture perhaps a trip back to the beginning is in order so as to rethink what it means that in the beginning Elohim made them male, (spirit?) and female, (soul?). However the helpmate-female, (soul) is deceived and walks according to the flesh. You however are not deceived, (the "man" is not his/her body). Therefore walk according to the Spirit, as Paul admonishes all of his readers, if you want to understand his words in the way in which he intends them by the scripture: for the man (spirit) was not deceived, but rather the helpmate-woman, ("the flesh"). These terms are used merely as allegories. If you are a son of God you will no doubt come to see it: and you will hopefully come to understand what it means not to allow your "helpmate", ("the flesh") to teach or speak for you in the congregation, (regardless of what you are on the outside, that is, the body-temple you have been given). The holy seed is Spirit, supernal, and spiritual. Don't worry about the flesh; for as Paul says, she will be "saved" through child birth, (whether male or female) for that is the only way that natural physical seed lines may continue, that is, physical procreation. :)

Perhaps then the reason more specific guidelines are not laid out in Torah for what your OP herein above is considering would be simply because the Torah leaves such things to common sense while the Torah speaks of much higher supernal things. Everyone naturally already knows that adultery is in violation regardless of the make up of the physical body on the outside of the person committing the act. In other words love your neighbor and your fellow mankind as yourself, (which of course goes for husbands and wives, and how they treat each other, just as they would want to be loved and treated), and with this alone you already have the second greatest commandment being fulfilled. As soon as one begins to go into the "letter" of the Torah then the same begins to start coming up with conclusions and exclusions, statues, rulings, and judgements of this or that, (broadly speaking), because "this or that" technically is or is not written in the Torah. Thus one may come to a conclusion and say something to the effect that, "Well, there is no law against this or that for men, so it must be okay for men to do this or that", but is that judgement correct when the "this or that" concerns an action that murders the heart of his loving wife? Everyone already knows the answer; their own conscience bearing them witness either for or against them in their own minds concerning what they intend to do before they do it. As for Romans 7:13 and "rules regarding adultery" I do not see the connection in that statement so I suppose I should go look at the discussion in that thread. :)
 

daqq

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Oh my goodness: having just looked at the OP in that thread you might want to change the OP in this thread, for it is not Romans 7:13 but Romans 7:1-3, (and thus my confusion). :)
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Oh my goodness: having just looked at the OP in that thread you might want to change the OP in this thread, for it is not Romans 7:13 but Romans 7:1-3, (and thus my confusion). :)

Fixed it all because of you. See, you're already helping.

: )
 

daqq

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Fixed it all because of you. See, you're already helping.

: )

:)

Paul is very crafty. He is not writing about physical marriage and remarriage in this passage because he does not actually use a word for marriage but rather, (and this is where the Torah comes in), he says, "so that you may become another". The reason why he says become another is because the two indeed become one flesh according to the Torah, (that is, Messiah dwelling in you). Though it may appear on the surface it is not the Torah which must die but us, (that is, "the flesh" with all its attributes of the old man nature). Thus again Paul speaks of much higher things than simply speaking of physical adultery which he merely uses for example and illustrative purposes. What follows in the passage makes this pretty clear; for there are two forms of Torah, and although Horeb and Sinai generally speak of the same mountain they do not speak of the same things. Horeb is Torah of Elohim, and of the mind, and of above; Sinai is the Torah of sin, (to be employed against the deeds of the body to "mortify the flesh" with all its deeds and attributes), and Torah of Sinai, which is Torah of sin and death, is of below, that is, against the old man, the carnal man, his mindset, and the deeds of the body. This is precisely what Paul states at the close of the passage, (Rom 7:25, "So then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim, [Horeb] but with the flesh the Torah of sin", [Sinai]). It truly speaks of mortifying or putting to death your "members which are upon the earth", (Col 3:5), and mortifying or putting to death "the deeds of the body", (Rom 8:13).

Romans 7:3-4 W/H
3 αρα ουν ζωντος του ανδρος μοιχαλις χρηματισει εαν γενηται ανδρι ετερω εαν δε αποθανη ο ανηρ ελευθερα εστιν απο του νομου του μη ειναι αυτην μοιχαλιδα γενομενην ανδρι ετερω

3 So then, while the husband lives, if she be becomes another man,
[γενηται ανδρι ετερω] she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she become another man [γενομενην ανδρι ετερω].

4 ωστε αδελφοι μου και υμεις εθανατωθητε τω νομω δια του σωματος του χριστου εις το γενεσθαι υμας ετερω τω εκ νεκρων εγερθεντι ινα καρποφορησωμεν τω θεω

4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also were
[have been - are being] put to death by the law, by way of the body of Messiah, toward your becoming another that is awakened-raised from the dead; so that that we might bring forth fruit unto Elohim.

The old man soul is what must die so that we may be raised anew in Messiah, that is, by way of his Testimony, "putting on the mind of Messiah", which is truly the new interpretation of the Torah by the full Testimony of Yeshua; the transformation of the Torah from technical statutes and physical minded ordinances into Torah of Spirit and of the mind, (even the mind of Elohim), and that Testimony Yeshua paid for with his own blood, (the purchase price as you no doubt know). And yet his Testimony was not his own but given him from the Father above. There is therefore no other name under the heavens having been given among men whereby we must be saved because the Father has sealed and approved the name of Yeshua Messiah and his all-important Testimony. Those in the other thread who might be claiming to be Torah scholars are most likely speaking from the old man soulish interpretation of the Torah, (especially anyone who rejects the Testimony of Yeshua as being that of Messiah). IMO none of this really has anything to do with the laws for men and women concerning physical adultery which is clearly morally wrong.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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:)

Paul is very crafty. He is not writing about physical marriage and remarriage in this passage because he does not actually use a word for marriage but rather, (and this is where the Torah comes in), he says, "so that you may become another". The reason why he says become another is because the two indeed become one flesh according to the Torah, (that is, Messiah dwelling in you). Though it may appear on the surface it is not the Torah which must die but us, (that is, "the flesh" with all its attributes of the old man nature). Thus again Paul speaks of much higher things than simply speaking of physical adultery which he merely uses for example and illustrative purposes. What follows in the passage makes this pretty clear; for there are two forms of Torah, and although Horeb and Sinai generally speak of the same mountain they do not speak of the same things. Horeb is Torah of Elohim, and of the mind, and of above; Sinai is the Torah of sin, (to be employed against the deeds of the body to "mortify the flesh" with all its deeds and attributes), and Torah of Sinai, which is Torah of sin and death, is of below, that is, against the old man, the carnal man, his mindset, and the deeds of the body. This is precisely what Paul states at the close of the passage, (Rom 7:25, "So then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim, [Horeb] but with the flesh the Torah of sin", [Sinai]). It truly speaks of mortifying or putting to death your "members which are upon the earth", (Col 3:5), and mortifying or putting to death "the deeds of the body", (Rom 8:13).

Romans 7:3-4 W/H
3 αρα ουν ζωντος του ανδρος μοιχαλις χρηματισει εαν γενηται ανδρι ετερω εαν δε αποθανη ο ανηρ ελευθερα εστιν απο του νομου του μη ειναι αυτην μοιχαλιδα γενομενην ανδρι ετερω

3 So then, while the husband lives, if she be becomes another man,
[γενηται ανδρι ετερω] she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she become another man [γενομενην ανδρι ετερω].

4 ωστε αδελφοι μου και υμεις εθανατωθητε τω νομω δια του σωματος του χριστου εις το γενεσθαι υμας ετερω τω εκ νεκρων εγερθεντι ινα καρποφορησωμεν τω θεω

4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also were
[have been - are being] put to death by the law, by way of the body of Messiah, toward your becoming another that is awakened-raised from the dead; so that that we might bring forth fruit unto Elohim.

The old man soul is what must die so that we may be raised anew in Messiah, that is, by way of his Testimony, "putting on the mind of Messiah", which is truly the new interpretation of the Torah by the full Testimony of Yeshua; the transformation of the Torah from technical statutes and physical minded ordinances into Torah of Spirit and of the mind, (even the mind of Elohim), and that Testimony Yeshua paid for with his own blood, (the purchase price as you no doubt know). And yet his Testimony was not his own but given him from the Father above. There is therefore no other name under the heavens having been given among men whereby we must be saved because the Father has sealed and approved the name of Yeshua Messiah and his all-important Testimony. Those in the other thread who might be claiming to be Torah scholars are most likely speaking from the old man soulish interpretation of the Torah, (especially anyone who rejects the Testimony of Yeshua as being that of Messiah). IMO none of this really has anything to do with the laws for men and women concerning physical adultery which is clearly morally wrong.

Would you please copy your post and past it into the actual discussion thread, or authorize me to cite this to you and cite the post, as well as paste its content.

I'm comfortable with both, but the point is.... this is excellent!
 

daqq

Well-known member
Would you please copy your post and past it into the actual discussion thread, or authorize me to cite this to you and cite the post, as well as paste its content.

I'm comfortable with both, but the point is.... this is excellent!

It's posted in an open forum, friend, do with it as you will. :)
 
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