ECT In Christ Before Me

[Jerry Shugart]

What do the words "in Christ" mean in the following verse written by the Apostle Paul?:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

Are those words not speaking about the same thing here?:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

And here?:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

 

[DAN P]

What do the words "in Christ" mean in the following verse written by the Apostle Paul?:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

Are those words not speaking about the same thing here?:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

And here?:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

Hi Jerry and only one is applicable for today , 2 Cor 5:17 !!

Paul is the only one that explains what being " in Christ " really means !!

Paul writes :

in Christ Jesus , 47 times

in the Lord , 41 times

in Christ , 31 times

in Him , 20 times

and more for a total of 155 times !!

I see what you think you can do , is to connect Peter and Paul !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I see what you think you can do , is to connect Peter and Paul !!

I think that when Paul used the words "in Christ" in the following verse he was using those words to refer to being in the Body of Christ:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

This means that there were some people who were in the Body of Christ before Paul. And Peter would have been one of the ones who had been in the Body before Paul. And that fact is confirmed when he wrote the following:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

 

[DAN P]

I think that when Paul used the words "in Christ" in the following verse he was using those words to refer to being in the Body of Christ:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

This means that there were some people who were in the Body of Christ before Paul. And Peter would have been one of the ones who had been in the Body before Paul. And that fact is confirmed when he wrote the following:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

Hi Jerry and IF they were " in Christ " before Paul , how can that be , since the B O C was not yet known !!

All the read Rom 16:17-15 were all " in Christ " before Paul !!

Many believe that in verse 13 it is also speaking about Paul's mother ( mine )

Also notice that from verse 8-13 it uses " in the Lord " and NOT "in Christ "
" in the Lord " , instead of " in Christ " ??

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and IF they were " in Christ " before Paul , how can that be , since the B O C was not yet known !!

There is nothing which demonstrates that the Jewish believers had to know about the existence of the Body of Christ before they could be baptized into the Body.

Again, Paul speaks of people who were "in Christ" before he was. I do not see the words "in Christ" used in any other way but to indicate being in the Body of Christ.

 

[DAN P]

There is nothing which demonstrates that the Jewish believers had to know about the existence of the Body of Christ before they could be baptized into the Body.

Again, Paul speaks of people who were "in Christ" before he was. I do not see the words "in Christ" used in any other way but to indicate being in the Body of Christ.

Hi and describe it this way , that they were in Christ because of the Kingdom message !!

We are in Christ Dispensationally !!

Paul says in Acts 9:31 that the assemblies through out the whole of Judea and Galilee and Samaria were havin peace , being built up and going on in reverent fear od the Lord , and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit , were being multiplied !!

Paul had just been saved in Acts 9:6 , SO WHO started these churches ??

Not Paul , and they never heard of the MYSTERY !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

That Paul goes back and forth in Romans 16, between his use of the phrases "in Christ" and "helpers in Christ" and "in the Lord" and "servants in the Lord" makes it very obvious to me that he is not singling out Body / Non-Body members, or what have you.

Rather, that he is basically talking about various Believers in the Lord, some of which have also labored in the Lord - in the Lord's work.

Note the different uses of these two, at times, related phrases - "in Christ" and "in the Lord."

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

There it means that she has been a highly esteemed servant of the Lord in the church at Corinth and should be received as such.

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Helpers in Christ Jesus in what sense?

16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

In other words, their walk in the Lord had been that enboldening in them.

He is taking about fellow labourers and or helpers in the work of the Lord.

Much of the chapter is about this laboring in the Lord...

Romans 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us. 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

They were Believers before Paul was, and are well known by the Apostles as great fellow laborers in the work of the Lord.

16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.

The guy is a Believer who Paul is fond of in the Lord.

16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.

Two more beloved helpers in the work of Christ.

16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.

Certainly, Apelles is not the only Believer approved in Christ, there.

Meaning, that Paul is not talking about his being or not being in the Body.

Rather, Paul is basically saying the same thing about all these fellow laborers and Believers in the Lord - he is noting their approved work in the Lord's work.

16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.

In other words, Believers in the Lord.

And so on...

16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord. 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Nope...Paul is not noting who and who is not in the Body in all that.

He is merely sending a greeting to various Believers in Christ and also, an added word of commendation to others there who are fellow laborers in the work of the Lord.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 - in Christ's stead - Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That Paul goes back and forth in Romans 16, between his use of the phrases "in Christ" and "helpers in Christ" and "in the Lord" and "servants in the Lord" makes it very obvious to me that he is not singling out Body / Non-Body members, or what have you.

You did not address what Paul wrote here:

"So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" (2 Cor.5:17; J. N. Darby Translation).​

Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, said the following about this verse:

"The above rendering of II Cor. 5:17 by J.N.Darby, in his 'New Translation,' is doubtless more accurate than that of the 'Authorized Version'.' This 'new creation,' this 'one new man,' this 'joint body,' formed of Jews and Gentiles made one in Christ, is called 'His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' (Eph. 1:23)" (Stam, True Spirituality [Berean Literature Foundation, 1984], 48,50).​

Those who are said to be "in Christ" are members of the Church, which is His Body. If "any one be in Christ" he is a member of the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Paul would use the phrase "in Christ" indiscriminately, sometimes applying it to the Body of Christ and sometimes not. That would lead to nothing but confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

Besides, as Stam said, the Body of Christ is made up of both Jewish believers and Gentile believers. And it is a fact that the middle wall of partition has been broken down and both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers have been reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

There is absolutely nothing written in this passage by Paul which even hints that the wall of partition has been only partially broken down and there remains some of the believing Jews who are not reconciled unto God in the Body of Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and describe it this way , that they were in Christ because of the Kingdom message !!

We are in Christ Dispensationally !!

So, there is nothing which forbids the idea that those who believed the Kingdom message could not be baptized into the Body of Christ at a later time. Apollos is an example of someone saved by believing the gospel message but later we can understand that he was a member of the Body of Christ.

 

[jamie]

"Now you are the body of Christ and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:27-28)

The church is the eternal body of Christ, one with him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Now you are the body of Christ and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:27-28)

The church is the eternal body of Christ, one with him.

Yes, and the following words of John are speaking of being one with the Lord Jesus:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

These Jewish Christians are told that the eternal life which has been given to them is "in" the Son. This can only be in regard to how the sinner is made "alive together with Christ":

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

This speaks of the Christian's total identification with the Lord Jesus, a truth which is true for only those who are in the Body of Christ.

 

[patrick jane]

What do the words "in Christ" mean in the following verse written by the Apostle Paul?:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

Are those words not speaking about the same thing here?:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

And here?:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

In Christ Before Paul

​

By Justin Johnson​

http://graceambassadors.com/midacts/in-christ-before-paul
Skeptics of the special revelation given to Paul are quick to point out that there were people “in Christ” before Paul.

“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” – Romans 16:7
​

Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.
Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…

“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” – Ephesians 1:10
​

The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.

It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.
So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him.

Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.
We can read in the prophets that Israel would be justified in the Lord:

“In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.” – Isa 45:25
​

Throughout the prophetic writings finding refuge in the Lord was a common theme. Being glad, rejoicing, and resting in the Lord were common admonitions.

That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery.
Peter and the twelve, along with Adronicus and Junia, had to be in Christ according to God’s earthly prophetic purpose.
The phrase “In him”, found at the end of Ephesians 1:10, is the phrase used more often by John in his writings about being in Christ.

“And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.” – 1 John 3:24
​

Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.

Fortunately, your position in Christ is not that of a branch but a body member (Eph 5:30). God does not cut off body parts. You and I are in Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of Christ. Our position in Christ is without the commandments of the law, and is apart from Israel’s covenants.

Being in Christ was always part of God’s plan for heaven and earth. That Israel needed to be found in the Lord was nothing new. When Christ came, he taught they needed to be in Him, and that they would be one with the Father (John 17:21). Those in Christ according to prophecy were part of Israel’s kingdom covenants (John 15:5).

Those that are in Christ according to the mystery dispensation of Christ are part of a new creature, without Jew or Gentile (2 Cor 5:17, Col 3:10-11). Out of two, Jew and Gentile, God made one new man in Christ in this dispensation (Eph 2:15-16).
The difference between prophecy and mystery is not that one would be in Christ and the other would not.

The dispensational difference is how we come to be in Christ. This has always been the difference.

The mystery of Christ explains how ungodly Gentiles could be in Christ without the law and access to the covenants. This mystery was not known by any of the prophets in time past until the Lord chose to reveal it to the apostle Paul.

http://graceambassadors.com/

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25).

Yes, being in Christ was a mystery truth and the following verse speaks of Jewish believers being in the Body of Christ:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in (en) Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

The primary meaning of the Greek word en is "in the interior of some whole" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

That matches perfectly with the idea of being in the Body of Christ, being "in Christ."

Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.

To abide in Christ is speaking about remaining in fellowship with Him. And the Jews who were in the Body possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said the following about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

 

[DAN P]

So, there is nothing which forbids the idea that those who believed the Kingdom message could not be baptized into the Body of Christ at a later time. Apollos is an example of someone saved by believing the gospel message but later we can understand that he was a member of the Body of Christ.

Hi Jerry and the preaching of the MYSTERY was explained to Apollos by Aquila and Priscilla in Acts 18:26 and they took him and expounded the WAY of God to him more EXACTLY !!

There are to gospels being preached here , One the BAPTISM OF John and the preaching of the WAY to APOLLOS by AQUILA and PRISCILLA !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and the preaching of the MYSTERY was explained to Apollos by Aquila and Priscilla in Acts 18:26 and they took him and expounded the WAY of God to him more EXACTLY !!

There are to gospels being preached here , One the BAPTISM OF John and the preaching of the WAY to APOLLOS by AQUILA and PRISCILLA !!

Nothing you said even hints that those who were saved by believing the gospel of the kingdom were not made members of the Body of Christ. In fact, Paul made it plain that the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers were reconciled unto God in one Body:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Your ideas are based on a false idea that the middle wall of partition still stands and has not been broken down.

 

[beloved57]

What do the words "in Christ" mean in the following verse written by the Apostle Paul?:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

Are those words not speaking about the same thing here?:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

And here?:

"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

In Christ before me means a believer in Christ before me.

 

[DAN P]

Nothing you said even hints that those who were saved by believing the gospel of the kingdom were not made members of the Body of Christ. In fact, Paul made it plain that the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers were reconciled unto God in one Body:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Your ideas are based on a false idea that the middle wall of partition still stands and has not been broken down.

Him Jerry and you never answered Acts 18:25 and 26 !!

You did not as you can not disprove verses 25 and 26 !!

So explain what the WAY means in verse 26 !!

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles NOT to the Jews , got it ??

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry and you never answered Acts 18:25 and 26 !!

You did not as you can not disprove verses 25 and 26 !!

So explain what the WAY means in verse 26 !!

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles NOT to the Jews , got it ??

Dan, Apollos was saved initially when he believed the gospel of the kingdom. And then Aquila and Priscilla shared the gospel which was first given to Paul to them and they then understood the way of God more perfectly.

After those events we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).​

Please tell me why you don't think that the middle wall of partition has been broken down even though Paul said that it has.

 

[DAN P]

Dan, Apollos was saved initially when he believed the gospel of the kingdom. And then Aquila and Priscilla shared the gospel which was first given to Paul to them and they then understood the way of God more perfectly.

After those events we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).​

Please tell me why you don't think that the middle wall of partition has been broken down even though Paul said that it has.

Hi Jerry and I have answered that question many times and I said the MIDDLE WALL OF PERDITION was torn down , DO YOU UNDERSTAND , it now ??

Just because it was torn down does not then means all Jews or the 12 apostles or that they stopped preaching the Kingdom message , like as Acts 21:20 and 21 !!

You just fly right over Acts 25 where Apollos was preaching John Baptism and THEN WAS TAUGHT the Mystery by Aquila and Pricsilla !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and I have answered that question many times and I said the MIDDLE WALL OF PERDITION was torn down , DO YOU UNDERSTAND , it now ??

Just because it was torn down does not then means all Jews or the 12 apostles or that tghey stopped preaching the Kingdom message , like as Acts 21:20 and 21 !!

In case you didn't notice it Paul never said only a part of the middle wall was broken down. The whole wall of partition was broken down and all of the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ.

Not just "some" of them, as you imagine!