ECT How Christian Zionists Would Change Jeremiah 18: 1-6

[northwye]

How Christian Zionists Would Change Jeremiah 18: 1-6

Christian Zionists teach that God has two peoples, All Old Covenant Israel and
the capital C Church, that what they call Israel remains God's chosen people, and that
sometime in the future, perhaps at the end of the Church Age, God will turn
again to those of the Bloodline and save all of them who ever lived, all alive then,
or some of them alive at that time. Toward the end of the age he will rapture
the capital C Christian Zionist Church to heaven, and then he will deal with "Israel" once
more. This is postponement theology, or rotating theology, separation theology or dual covenant theology.

If all this is so, then lets look at what Jeremiah 18: 1-6 would say
in the parable of the potter as God:

"The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause
thee to hear my words.
3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a
work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the
potter: and so he set that pot on the shelf to be brought out again at
a later time. Then he made another pot different from the first pot,
out of a different lump of clay.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, and house of the Church, cannot I do with
you as this potter? Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand,
O house of Israel, and house of the Church."

I changed verses 4 and 6 to conform to dispensationalist theology.
Now lets see what God actually said in Jeremiah 18: 1-6:

Jeremiah 18, verse 4 actually says "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Saying that Old Covenant Israel was marred and that God said he would remake Israel does not agree with Christian Zionist doctrine. Christian Zionists say that Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ and their version of his Gospel, that he was to set up a physical kingdom and restore the Davidic kingdom. But they do not say that God promised in Jeremiah 18 that he would remake Old Covenant Israel.

I know that Christian Zionists - of some of hem - say that God will restore the Davidic Kingdom in the Millennial Age. But Christian Zionists - or some of them - interpret Acts 1: 6-7 to mean that Christ was to "restore again the kingdom to Israel," soon or maybe in the lifetime of the Apostles.

Jeremiah 18, verse 6 actually says "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

Christian Zionism does not agree with Jeremiah 18: 6 because it implies that God will remake Old Covenant Israel as he says in verse 4. So the entire verse should be left out. Or, the house of the Church should be added because in Christian Zionism God has two peoples, not just "Israel" - meaning Old Covenant Israel for the Christian Zionists.

"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the
potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me
not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no
understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16

Isaiah 29: 16 points to Jeremiah 18: 1- 6:

God turned things upside down for physical Israel.
This is what the Jews in Acts 17: 1-6 complained about. "Now when
they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to
Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath
days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and
risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto
you, is Christ.
4. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and
of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a
few.
5. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them
certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and
set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and
sought to bring them out to the people.
6. And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain
brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned
the world upside down are come hither also;"

In the parable of the potter, pointed to in Isaiah 29: 16, God the
potter remade physical Israel which he found to be marred. So he made
the same lump of clay into another pot, or vessel, which seemed good
to him. Finally he said as God he can do whatever he wants with
Israel as clay in his hands. Israel in this parable was not put on
the shelf as one people of God for a while, and God did not make a second,
entirely new people of God to be dealt with differently, called the
"Church." Instead, he transformed physical Israel into Israel reborn
in Jesus Christ. The promises to physical Israel are to Israel
reborn in Christ. It is still Israel as God's one elect people, but it has
been transformed and made spiritual and not mired in the flesh and in the
physical.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

northwye, Jeremiah 18 is talking TO the sons OF JACOB ABOUT the sons OF JACOB.

He is talking about His sovereign right not ONLY to pluck THEM up; scatter THEM; allow THEIR enemies to make a spoil of THEM, and so on; BUT ALSO to THEN regather THEM and form OUT OF THEM a NEW Nation.

The LORD CONTINUALLY shifts between THAT ASPECT concerning ISRAEL (Israel and Judah) described there in Jeremiah 18, and His OTHER ASPECT concerning ISRAEL, as in...

Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

He then mentions BOTH aspects of that...

23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

He then goes into the negative aspect once more...

23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. 23:10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

He OFTEN shifts between His descriptions of the ONE aspect of that concerning said sons OF JACOB (Israel and Judah) and the OTHER aspect of it.

And as with, say, THEIR Prophet: Hosea ALSO; those TWO Aspects concerning the sons OF JACOB, are a common theme, subtext, or recurrent pattern found running throughout the narrative of various of THEIR Prophets.

BOTH Aspects of THEIR cursing, and of THEIR blessing...

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Distort things how your obviously erroneous method of studying a thing out might compel you to distort them in your belief that that is not what you are doing; that last passage I just now quoted is in direct opposition to your every assertion regarding some supposedly made up Zionism, or what have you.

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" - Malachi 3:6

Where you go south is in your failure to discern that in Romans 9-11, the Apostle Paul is at times DESCRIBING the STATUS of BOTH Unbelieving and Believing sons OF JACOB IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, and other times he is ADDRESSING them BOTH.

This, even as he is describing said status to the Gentiles (lest they also end up wise in their OWN "chosen people" conceit).

Fact is, Romans was written in a manner that it addresses BOTH the lost AND the saved "sons OF JACOB" and BOTH the lost AND the saved "of THE GENTILES ALSO..."

 

[northwye]

The prophetic revelation in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 is not only pointed to in Isaiah 29: 16, but earlier in II Kings 21: 13. "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down."

Christian Zionism starts from a literal "Hermeneutic." One of its founders C.I Scofield said ""Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.

II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 are all Old Testament prophecies which are written in metaphoric language. Yet Christian Zionism's method of interpretation says prophecy must always be literal.

In II Kings 21: 13 Jerusalem being turned upside down would then have to mean the literal city unearthed and turned upside down.

Isaiah 29: 16 saying God's turning of things upside down is literal and the potter's clay is also literal - if you follow the method of interpretation of Christian Zionism.

Jeremiah 18: 1-6 uses the potter's making of a pot which turned out to be marred as a parable. If a potter throws a pot on his wheel that he does not like, he can take it off the wheel, put it on a table. mix some dry clay with the lump, kneel it and put it back on the wheel and make a new pot out of it.

What is being said of what in this metaphoric language? A big part of the answer is found in Jeremiah 18: 6, "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?" and "Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." There is no question that the parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 is about the remaking of Israel, like a potter can remake a piece of clay.

Israel is the pot which turned out to be marred in the hand of the potter. It is Israel which the potter puts back on his wheel as a lump of clay and remakes the lump, which is Israel, that is made into a new pot, a new Israel.

Paul refers to the "lump" in Romans 9: 11, which is a statement within a fairly long text: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion................Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Paul is using the same metaphor in Romans 9: 21 that Jeremiah uses in Jeremiah 18: 1-6. The "lump" is again Israel, some of whom accept Christ and become the remnant (Romans 11: 5) which begins the New Covenant, and some reject Christ and are cut off. That is, when God remakes Israel, he also makes from that lump two groups, one becoming the elect and the other those discarded as vessels of dishonor.

 

[Danoh]

As with some others on here, regardlesss of "camp" - your problem, northwye, is that you view things through a basic, general, perceptual map for the attempted discernment of reality lens that is extremist going in.

As a result, you cannot but turn what ever conclusion you arrive at on a thing into being not only all there was to examine before allowing yourself your conclusions, but you cannot help but turn said conclusions into an extreme you then expect others to subscribe to or else they are just some sort of an heritic in your eyes.

You did the exact same thing in your rant on the Media and Trump.

You went on about how pathologically up to no good both the Clintons and the Liberal media had been.

Then, just as quickly, you concluded otherwise about the Right and their own false idol - Trump.

Extremists all manifest this aspect of a thing.

What ever they subscribe to, they right away conclude is not only all there was to consider about a matter before concluding on it, but also right off conclude it the truth and one that anyone who does not hold to say is their great enemy.

This is why extremists who, for example, strongly disagree on one doctrine or another, just as often end up finding they are fellow extremists after all, say, in their politics - and the other side is their great enemy.

Your/their - "one size fits all" - map of reality in general is the map of "reality" of the extremist.

 

[Interplanner]

NOrth wrote:
But Christian Zionists - or some of them - interpret Acts 1: 6-7 to mean that Christ was to "restore again the kingdom to Israel," soon or maybe in the lifetime of the Apostles.


that is the graduating step which 2P2P does not follow. The contrastive "But..." which starts v8 means: 'the 'kingdom' you have in mind is not going to happen; the 'kingdom' I always had in mind through the proclamation of Christ is coming and you will be empowered in it and spread it.' By the middle of the 1st sermon we see that David also had this in mind: he saw Christ enthroned in the resurrection event.