How Can A Just God Work With King David?

[Right Divider]

Well, yes and no. It's not as if Stephen was the first person every to be put to death for religious reason in Israel since Rome took over. The Jewish leadership knew how to get done what they wanted done.

But this was not a premeditated action. So it wasn't as if it was something that they "wanted" done. It just happened spontaneously.

The point is that it was an official act done by the governing leadership of Israel, not some hit done by the ancient equivalent of a Mob Boss.

Again, a "hit" would be premeditated and we seem to agree that this was not such. So it was a bit of a "mob" action ("mob" as in "unruly crowd").

Leadership yes, government no. The leadership of Israel had no governing authority. That's why they took Jesus to Pilate for their plans for His death. Not so with Stephen.

 

[Clete]

But this was not a premeditated action. So it wasn't as if it was something that they "wanted" done. It just happened spontaneously.

That isn't relevant. They knew what they could get away with and what they couldn't. Maybe they had to bribe someone, maybe they already had someone on the pay roll, maybe they didn't care this time around and decided to ask forgiveness rather than permission. It doesn't matter. This was an official act of the leadership of the Jewish people attempting to put down this "Jesus cult" once and for all.

Again, a "hit" would be premeditated and we seem to agree that this was not such. So it was a bit of a "mob" action ("mob" as in "unruly crowd").

That has nothing to do with the point I was making. This was not a murder in the normal sense of the term. This was a government action. Whether it was done by the Roman book or not.

Leadership yes, government no.

It absolutely was the government! Stephen wasn't there giving a presentation to the elder board of his local church assembly or making a speech before some political action committee. This council was the ruling body of the Jewish nation. Just because they didn't have absolute power to do whatever they wanted to do doesn't mean they weren't part of the government. This was the same governmental body that gave "papers" to Saul giving him authority to arrest people for believing in Jesus.

The leadership of Israel had no governing authority.

Who told you this?
The Romans didn't go in after concurring a region and try to turn everyone into Romans. They often let them do things pretty much the way they always had with some modification/restrictions and taxes imposed to make rebellions more difficult and to make sure Roman interests were maintained. If memory serves me correctly, during the time of Jesus, the High Priest was actually appointed by Rome. That sounds like government to me.

That's why they took Jesus to Pilate for their plans for His death. Not so with Stephen.

You think that because they went to Pilot in once instance and not another it means that they weren't a government body?

They went to Pilot because God wanted them to go to Pilot. I mean, God would have preferred them to repent, of course, but if their course was going to be to put Jesus to death, God was going to see to it that it wasn't only done by the Jews but by the Gentiles as well, and specifically on a cross to boot. There weren't any centuries old, messianic prophesies that God was fulfilling with the death of Stephen and so there was no need for God to manipulate things in this way.

Further, we don't have any idea the degree to which the Jews had already involved the Roman authorities in their dealings with this religious movement and with Stephen in particular. This wasn't the first time they had ordered the followers of Jesus to keep their mouth's shut. For all we know they had already received permission from the Roman governor to deal with it in whatever way they saw fit.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Relevant:

 

[Right Divider]

That isn't relevant. They knew what they could get away with and what they couldn't. Maybe they had to bribe someone, maybe they already had someone on the pay roll, maybe they didn't care this time around and decided to ask forgiveness rather than permission. It doesn't matter. This was an official act of the leadership of the Jewish people attempting to put down this "Jesus cult" once and for all.


That has nothing to do with the point I was making. This was not a murder in the normal sense of the term. This was a government action. Whether it was done by the Roman book or not.


It absolutely was the government! Stephen wasn't there giving a presentation to the elder board of his local church assembly or making a speech before some political action committee. This council was the ruling body of the Jewish nation. Just because they didn't have absolute power to do whatever they wanted to do doesn't mean they weren't part of the government. This was the same governmental body that gave "papers" to Saul giving him authority to arrest people for believing in Jesus.


Who told you this?
The Romans didn't go in after concurring a region and try to turn everyone into Romans. They often let them do things pretty much the way they always had with some modification/restrictions and taxes imposed to make rebellions more difficult and to make sure Roman interests were maintained. If memory serves me correctly, during the time of Jesus, the High Priest was actually appointed by Rome. That sounds like government to me.


You think that because they went to Pilot in once instance and not another it means that they weren't a government body?

They went to Pilot because God wanted them to go to Pilot. I mean, God would have preferred them to repent, of course, but if their course was going to be to put Jesus to death, God was going to see to it that it wasn't only done by the Jews but by the Gentiles as well, and specifically on a cross to boot. There weren't any centuries old, messianic prophesies that God was fulfilling with the death of Stephen and so there was no need for God to manipulate things in this way.

Further, we don't have any idea the degree to which the Jews had already involved the Roman authorities in their dealings with this religious movement and with Stephen in particular. This wasn't the first time they had ordered the followers of Jesus to keep their mouth's shut. For all we know they had already received permission from the Roman governor to deal with it in whatever way they saw fit.

Good post Clete. I've reread the passage and stand corrected.

Do you think that the reason that they had the Romans kill Jesus was to give some legitimacy to that killing? Since Jesus was the "top" guy as opposed to Stephen?

 

[Clete]

Good post Clete. I've reread the passage and stand corrected.

Do you think that the reason that they had the Romans kill Jesus was to give some legitimacy to that killing? Since Jesus was the "top" guy as opposed to Stephen?

Legitimacy in the eyes of the public, you mean?

That was probably part of it, I'm sure but there's no real way to know, right?

Regardless of their motives, I'm not sure that it could have gone down any other way once it was decided that rejection and death of their Messiah was the path they were going to take. I find it very difficult to accept that God didn't have Christ's death on a cross specifically in mind when several prophesies were made, not the least of which is where the Jews were instructed to place lamb's blood on their door frames. The whole episode seems very clearly to have, predicted, expected and even divinely orchestrated, including the fact that the Jews got the Roman authorities involved.

 

[Clete]

Relevant:

I miss Bob so much!

 

[Right Divider]

Legitimacy in the eyes of the public, you mean?

Yes, that is what I meant.

That was probably part of it, I'm sure but there's no real way to know, right?

Right, we can only speculate.

Regardless of their motives, I'm not sure that it could have gone down any other way once it was decided that rejection and death of their Messiah was the path they were going to take.

They could have just killed Jesus like they did Stephen. Taking it to the Romans was extra work. Seems that there should be a reason to take that approach.

I find it very difficult to accept that God didn't have Christ's death on a cross specifically in mind when several prophesies were made, not the least of which is where the Jews were instructed to place lamb's blood on their door frames. The whole episode seems very clearly to have, predicted, expected and even divinely orchestrated, including the fact that the Jews got the Roman authorities involved.

Oh, I agree that it matched with prophecy and was therefore necessary. I'm just saying that from the perspective of the leadership of Israel there was more "work" in taking that approach. But that they probably wanted Jesus' death to look "more official" by getting the Romans involved and "keeping their hands clean".

 

[Clete]

Yes, that is what I meant.

Right, we can only speculate.

They could have just killed Jesus like they did Stephen. Taking it to the Romans was extra work. Seems that there should be a reason to take that approach.

Oh, I agree that it matched with prophecy and was therefore necessary. I'm just saying that from the perspective of the leadership of Israel there was more "work" in taking that approach. But that they probably wanted Jesus' death to look "more official" by getting the Romans involved and "keeping their hands clean".

Yes, well they had already tried to get the Romans involved a couple of times before. There was the question they asked Jesus about paying taxes and the episode with the woman caught in adultery. These were both situations intended to entrap Jesus with the Roman authorities and so, in Jesus' case, it seems that they had Roman involvement in mind all along. Even this, however, may have been being influenced by God to some degree.