Heaven

Nihilo

Nihilo

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I'm still very new to Holy Catholicism, but so far here's what I gather that heaven is like, right now, as we speak and live and breathe.

Mary is the queen of heaven. In heaven, it's as obvious that she is royalty as it is obvious right now that the Queen of England is royalty. It's just as obvious that the 12 Apostles are each greatly glorified in heaven. After that are the Saints of the Church, those with great measures of Christian faith (Eph4:5KJV). In heaven, this is all painfully obvious.

And there is a throne upon which the Lord Jesus sits, and it is higher than Mary's throne, it is as obvious that He is upon the throne as a glorious oak tree or church steeple protrudes up out of the earth. Compared to His glory the relative glories of the others pale, of course, but within His magnificent glory there does glow points of light, themselves empowered by His brilliant light. Mary is in great light, as are the Apostles and the Saints of the Church.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

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The woman in Revelation 12 who is most often associated with Mary or the queen of heaven is a symbolic picture of the new covenant bride of Christ. The Catholic veneration of Mary the Lord's earthly mother is not biblical.
 
Nihilo

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Epoisses said:
The woman in Revelation 12 who is most often associated with Mary or the queen of heaven is a symbolic picture of the new covenant bride of Christ. The Catholic veneration of Mary the Lord's earthly mother is not biblical.
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The Bride of Christ is the Church though; the Lord was not born to the Church, He was born to Mary. I do wonder if Mary represents all of Israel though.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

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Nihilo said:
The Bride of Christ is the Church though; the Lord was not born to the Church, He was born to Mary. I do wonder if Mary represents all of Israel though.
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Revelation 12 is a end-time prophecy so the male child is either one of the two witnesses who are caught up to the throne or the symbolic child of a nation being born in a day (144,000).
 
Nihilo

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Epoisses said:
Revelation 12 is a end-time prophecy so the male child is either one of the two witnesses who are caught up to the throne or the symbolic child of a nation being born in a day (144,000).
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My position is that Revelation 12:5 (KJV) is talking about the Lord Jesus. I base it in part upon Psalm 110:1 (KJV) and how frequently the New Testament refers to Psalm 110:1 (KJV) when talking about the Lord. His regnal name Christ also means that He is royalty.
 
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Spoiler
"Al-Bukhārī's version"

Narrated by Abu Huraira:

One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Messenger replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Messenger replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked,
"What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Messenger replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you."
Spoiler
Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Messenger replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.
This verse from the Hadith of Gabriel has informed my view of heaven, full disclosure. In my mind now, I replace quote-unquote Allah with the Lord Jesus Christ, because I believe in the Trinity now. The Lord Jesus is Allah.
 
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Stuu

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Nihilo said:
I'm still very new to Holy Catholicism, but so far here's what I gather that heaven is like, right now, as we speak and live and breathe.
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So you are confident that the Catholic heaven doesn't look like this:

priests-salute.jpg

Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukölln stadium in August 1933.

The history of the European Catholic church in the first half of the 20th Century is essentially the history of fascism in Southern Europe. Of course the uneasy relationship between the church and the Nazis is another thing again.

Did the Franciscan monks who converted people to Catholicism at gunpoint, living under the puppet Nazi regime of Ante Pavelic, have a view of what heaven looks like do you think?

Stuart
 
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Stuu said:
So you are confident that the Catholic heaven doesn't look like this:

priests-salute.jpg

Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukölln stadium in August 1933.

The history of the European Catholic church in the first half of the 20th Century is essentially the history of fascism in Southern Europe. Of course the uneasy relationship between the church and the Nazis is another thing again.

Did the Franciscan monks who converted people to Catholicism at gunpoint, living under the puppet Nazi regime of Ante Pavelic, have a view of what heaven looks like do you think?

Stuart
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Of course the earth is different from heaven Stu. A more accurate view of heaven right now informs our decisions in the here and now. Heaven is lit by the glory emanating from the Lord (cf. Matthew 17:2 KJV, which was only a brief glimpse of His glory), and He rules heaven, just as the Father is growing His kingdom on the earth, making His enemies His footstool (Ps110:1KJV, cf. Isa66:1KJV).
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

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Nihilo said:
My position is that Revelation 12:5 (KJV) is talking about the Lord Jesus. I base it in part upon Psalm 110:1 (KJV) and how frequently the New Testament refers to Psalm 110:1 (KJV) when talking about the Lord. His regnal name Christ also means that He is royalty.
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Revelation 12 is an end-time chapter, how do we know this? The beast has seven heads and ten horns which is the final phase of the beast. Satan did not have seven heads and ten horns in his initial fall from heaven. Paul spoke of the 3rd heaven as the abode of God so the 1st heaven is our atmosphere and the 2nd heaven is space. The war in heaven will take place in our atmosphere after the 5th and 6th trumpets.
 
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jsanford108

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Tambora said:
Scripture never calls her a queen of anything.


Scripture never says Mary has a throne.
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Scripture also never says "faith alone" (except when preceded by the words "not by"), that personal interpretation is best, or that Scripture is the highest authority.


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glorydaz

glorydaz

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jsanford108 said:
Scripture also never says "faith alone" (except when preceded by the words "not by"), that personal interpretation is best, or that Scripture is the highest authority.


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No, it says "by grace through faith".



And, actually, it does say that about scripture....all throughout the Bible in all kinds of ways.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

What you won't find is Mary being Queen or her having a throne.
 
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jsanford108

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glorydaz said:
No, it says "by grace through faith".



And, actually, it does say that about scripture....all throughout the Bible in all kinds of ways.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

What you won't find is Mary being Queen or her having a throne.
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Grace through faith: Scripture does say this. However, that does not mean "faith alone." Examine James. Specifically, James 2:24.

Sola Scriptura: You quote Timothy. Which does reference Scripture. However, at the time that this letter was penned, the "Scripture" was solely the Old Testament. No New Testament had been assembled and assorted yet. Furthermore, none of these verses which you have provided claim "Scripture is the highest authority."

Mary as Queen: This claim is a valid one, because no where in Scripture is it explicitly stated "Mary is Queen of Heaven." Good point. However, what of the woman in Revelation 12? She has a crown and gave birth to the the bridegroom. Interesting parallels there, wouldn't you agree? The most logical and scholarly explanation would be that Mary is the woman described in Revelation 12.
 
Nihilo

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Yes Stuart, Monty Python, The Simpsons, South Park and any other number of pagan depictions and imaginations of heaven abound.

But for my money: Heaven exists, a real non-fictional thing. When you RSVP Yes to the Lord by believing in Him (John 3:16 KJV), you see heaven for the first time. It's something that's lodged in your permanent memory and you'll never ever forget that glimpse, no matter what you go on to do and to believe. And the only way you got to see heaven, is because you were in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16 KJV ; Revelation 1:10 KJV).

You pass heaven off as a dream, except that its glory unmistakably peaks through into this life. Heaven breaks the barrier between the temporal and the eternal, every time someone speaks the heavenly language of love (Galatians 5:6 KJV).

We pray, Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Stuu said:
god-by-monty-python.jpg


Stuart
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