Heaven on Earth: Reposted from Front Page to here! Any final comments? -Bob

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Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
Heaven on Earth
God called the Firmament Heaven

By Pastor Bob Enyart

At Denver Bible Church, we teach Dr. Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory as the best understanding of Noah’s Flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, the firmament, miles above a massive subterranean ocean. “Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament,” (Gen. 1:7). The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11). Dr. Brown’s book, In the Beginninghttp://kgov.com/store/detail/literature/beginning.html, demonstrates powerfully that the world’s major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, “God called the firmament Heaven” (Gen. 1:8), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (Morris) or outer space (Humphreys).
However at DBC we show that, whether figurative or literal, the crust of the earth is the boundary between heaven and hell. Everything below the crust can be referred to as hell, the prison God had planned for any future unrepentant beings. “Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming” (Isa. 14:9, etc.). Everything above the crust can be referred to as heaven. Hence dozens of verses indicate that heaven also refers to the earth’s atmosphere as in “rain from heaven;” the “dew of heaven;” “birds of heaven;” “dust from the heaven;” city walls “fortified up to heaven;” smoke rises “to the midst of heaven;” “the heavens are shut” in drought; “frost of heaven;” “clouds of heaven;” “snow from heaven;” “hail from heaven;” and the east winds “blow in the heavens.” Thus even after the Fall, from Genesis and Job, through the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, the Bible continued to refer to the atmosphere, one molecule above the ground, as heaven.
“God called the firmament Heaven,” because the earth’s crust formed the border between heaven and the future hell. The firmament divided the waters of the earth (Gen. 1:2, 6) which even reserved the floodwaters of judgment below ground. And after the Fall earth permanently lost its heavenly designation, for apparently God will never fully replicate the first earth. Only two detailed Bible passages report on events prior to the Fall, the Genesis creation account and Isaiah’s record of Lucifer’s fall, and both of these passages refer to earth as heaven. Isaiah 14:12 describes “Lucifer” as “fallen from heaven,” yet Scripture places him on earth at the moment of his fall. “You were in Eden, the garden of God,” (Ezek. 28:13), and “you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven… I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,’” (Isa. 14:13 14), “yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit,” (Isa. 14:15). Even though he was on earth, Lucifer fell “from heaven,” because prior to the Fall, the surface of the earth was part of heaven’s realm. Notice that just as gravity pulls our physical flesh down toward the center of the earth, the Fall created the world system which relentlessly pulls our spiritual flesh, drawing us down toward the lowest depths until death, and then the believer’s released spirit soars upward to heaven, whereas the unbeliever’s unfettered spirit falls downward, the firmament no longer keeping him out of Hades, thus his soul plummets into hell. In the modern classic, Soul of Science, (1994, p. 38), Pearcey and Thaxton describe the view of Christian “medieval cosmology,” that “at the very center of the universe was Hell, then the earth, then (moving outward from the center) the progressively nobler spheres of the heavens.” Christians continue to affirm this hierarchy quoting Paul who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Cor 12:2), the first being the sky, the second is space, and the third God’s habitation. King David even seems to refer to the “earth” as “the foundations of heaven” (2 Sam. 22:8).
Moses used the word firmament nine times in the creation story. He intentionally distinguished the last four occurrences from the first four, all of which pivot around the central instance where God called the earth’s firmament Heaven. Each of the four in the second grouping (vv. 14, 15, 17, 20) is qualified separately by an exceptional repetition. The prepositional phrase “of the heavens” makes a distinction between the first firmament of the earth, and the second “firmament of the heavens,” so that the reader will not confuse this firmament of sky and space with the previous firmament of earth. Thus, readers alien to the notion of “heaven” on earth should nonetheless be able to separate the two firmaments, and understand God’s meaning. Now, millennia after the Fall, God’s own record of creation notwithstanding, sin has almost completely obscured the original perspective of the earth’s surface as “heaven.”
When man rebelled, earth became more like hell than heaven. So the Fall narrowed the spheres of heaven but only by a single molecule, which now begin at the atmosphere. Thus man’s habitation lost its heavenly designation. The Bible describes Hell as below, bounded by the firmament. However in the beginning “God called the firmament Heaven” because that’s where He placed Adam and Eve, above ground on the surface, in the heavens, in fellowship with Him, not in any other realm but in His kingdom, in heaven on earth.

© 2005 Bob Enyart
 
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Ecumenicist

New member
I think that the ancients thought that because the sky was blue, an
ocean above was being held seperate from the oceans on earth.

Then, when God created an opening between the oceans above
and the world below, the world was flooded.

Not bad logic, actually.

Dave
 

Ecumenicist

New member
But, I'm with you in thinking that through Christ, we have access
to the Kingdom here and now. Its about our eyes being opened
to the Kingdom all round us and within us when we open our
hearts to Christ.

Dave
 

billwald

New member
Please describe the physics that permits a physical world as described. Or do we live in a mystical/magical world and not a physical world? Anyone read the "Amber" series?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by billwald

Please describe the physics that permits a physical world as described.
Now that will likely be an exercise in futility...

Or do we live in a mystical/magical world and not a physical world?
I think you're getting closer to Enyart's worldview...

Anyone read the "Amber" series?
Yes. Perhaps even closer to Enyart's worldview.

:rolleyes:
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by billwald

Please describe the physics that permits a physical world as described. Or do we live in a mystical/magical world and not a physical world? Anyone read the "Amber" series?

Its the old "fact" vs "truth" question for scripture.

Are "waters seperated from waters by firmament " and
"opening floodgates of heavan" 6000 years ago
literal facts? That's a tough argument to sustain.

But there are may truths to be had from the illustrations.

Even from the viewpoint commonly held in science, our
very existance is a rare and fragile thing, with liquid water
and carefully balanced gaseous Oxygen and Nitrogen,
heavy elements formed in the bellies of exploding Novae,
millenia upon millenia of life building upon life, it boggles
my mind that people can't see the Hand of God in the
Creation and sustenance of our existance.

Surely the Hand of God (firmament) seperates us and
protects us from the cold vacuum and violent upheaval
that characterizes the physical nature of the Universe
around us.

Dave
 

Sleepy Time

New member
Re: Heaven on Earth: Reposted from Front Page to here! Any final comments? -Bob

Originally posted by Bob Enyart

Heaven on Earth
God called the Firmament Heaven

By Pastor Bob Enyart

At Denver Bible Church, we teach Dr. Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory as the best understanding of Noah’s Flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, the firmament, miles above a massive subterranean ocean. “Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament,” (Gen. 1:7). The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11). Dr. Brown’s book, In the Beginninghttp://kgov.com/store/detail/literature/beginning.html, demonstrates powerfully that the world’s major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, “God called the firmament Heaven” (Gen. 1:8), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (Morris) or outer space (Humphreys).
However at DBC we show that, whether figurative or literal, the crust of the earth is the boundary between heaven and hell. Everything below the crust can be referred to as hell, the prison God had planned for any future unrepentant beings. “Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming” (Isa. 14:9, etc.). Everything above the crust can be referred to as heaven. Hence dozens of verses indicate that heaven also refers to the earth’s atmosphere as in “rain from heaven;” the “dew of heaven;” “birds of heaven;” “dust from the heaven;” city walls “fortified up to heaven;” smoke rises “to the midst of heaven;” “the heavens are shut” in drought; “frost of heaven;” “clouds of heaven;” “snow from heaven;” “hail from heaven;” and the east winds “blow in the heavens.” Thus even after the Fall, from Genesis and Job, through the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, the Bible continued to refer to the atmosphere, one molecule above the ground, as heaven.
“God called the firmament Heaven,” because the earth’s crust formed the border between heaven and the future hell. The firmament divided the waters of the earth (Gen. 1:2, 6) which even reserved the floodwaters of judgment below ground. And after the Fall earth permanently lost its heavenly designation, for apparently God will never fully replicate the first earth. Only two detailed Bible passages report on events prior to the Fall, the Genesis creation account and Isaiah’s record of Lucifer’s fall, and both of these passages refer to earth as heaven. Isaiah 14:12 describes “Lucifer” as “fallen from heaven,” yet Scripture places him on earth at the moment of his fall. “You were in Eden, the garden of God,” (Ezek. 28:13), and “you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven… I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,’” (Isa. 14:13 14), “yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit,” (Isa. 14:15). Even though he was on earth, Lucifer fell “from heaven,” because prior to the Fall, the surface of the earth was part of heaven’s realm. Notice that just as gravity pulls our physical flesh down toward the center of the earth, the Fall created the world system which relentlessly pulls our spiritual flesh, drawing us down toward the lowest depths until death, and then the believer’s released spirit soars upward to heaven, whereas the unbeliever’s unfettered spirit falls downward, the firmament no longer keeping him out of Hades, thus his soul plummets into hell. In the modern classic, Soul of Science, (1994, p. 38), Pearcey and Thaxton describe the view of Christian “medieval cosmology,” that “at the very center of the universe was Hell, then the earth, then (moving outward from the center) the progressively nobler spheres of the heavens.” Christians continue to affirm this hierarchy quoting Paul who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Cor 12:2), the first being the sky, the second is space, and the third God’s habitation. King David even seems to refer to the “earth” as “the foundations of heaven” (2 Sam. 22:8).
Moses used the word firmament nine times in the creation story. He intentionally distinguished the last four occurrences from the first four, all of which pivot around the central instance where God called the earth’s firmament Heaven. Each of the four in the second grouping (vv. 14, 15, 17, 20) is qualified separately by an exceptional repetition. The prepositional phrase “of the heavens” makes a distinction between the first firmament of the earth, and the second “firmament of the heavens,” so that the reader will not confuse this firmament of sky and space with the previous firmament of earth. Thus, readers alien to the notion of “heaven” on earth should nonetheless be able to separate the two firmaments, and understand God’s meaning. Now, millennia after the Fall, God’s own record of creation notwithstanding, sin has almost completely obscured the original perspective of the earth’s surface as “heaven.”
When man rebelled, earth became more like hell than heaven. So the Fall narrowed the spheres of heaven but only by a single molecule, which now begin at the atmosphere. Thus man’s habitation lost its heavenly designation. The Bible describes Hell as below, bounded by the firmament. However in the beginning “God called the firmament Heaven” because that’s where He placed Adam and Eve, above ground on the surface, in the heavens, in fellowship with Him, not in any other realm but in His kingdom, in heaven on earth.

© 2005 Bob Enyart

From comments here on Bob's church and his written works (the plot) and other works along with his commitment and dedication to his church (Denver Bible?) I would say that (and I don't know a lot lol) he seems to be a good read into Christian truth and understanding of Biblical principles in a goodly amount of his writing. Kudos Bob.
The downside of Enyart is that he (and many others) attempt to position his radical right wing beliefs as some hybrid Christian truth. No TV affiliate had ever put him on (despite funding) after 11 or midnight and for good reason. In his "Politically Incorrect" appearances he waters down his "message" (is that by network dictate Bob or just that in prime time you would come off a Fred Phelps-like idiot?)
Your "nicer than God" attack on lukewarm believers is spot on.
However you retaliate with a "meaner than God" approach?
Sadly many of your "disciples" here at TOL buy into your mantra hook, line, and sinker.

Bob, with all due respect, your writings and Biblical interpretations contain much truth.

But, when you attempt to be some sort of media celeb, can't you, and Phelps, and Falwell, and Hinn, etc...etc...stop giving us our Lord and Savior's message thru your warped and biased interpretation???

:confused:
 

billwald

New member
"Surely the Hand of God (firmament) seperates us and
protects us from the cold vacuum and violent upheaval
that characterizes the physical nature of the Universe
around us."

A strange way of stating the case. One wouldn't say that the sea shore protects us from the ocean.
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by billwald

"Surely the Hand of God (firmament) seperates us and
protects us from the cold vacuum and violent upheaval
that characterizes the physical nature of the Universe
around us."

A strange way of stating the case. One wouldn't say that the sea shore protects us from the ocean.

Sorry, I don't see the connection. A breakwater or
barrier island perhaps...
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by billwald

A Vacuum is . . . nothing. God protectes us from nothing?

You wanna take a little stroll in "nothing" and see what
happens? Blood boils, eyes pop out, rats have been
tested that have literally exploded. Pop goes the
weasel!
 

Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
TOL ideas make it into Walt Brown's book!

TOL ideas make it into Walt Brown's book!

Congratulations: to all who gave constructive criticism! Walt Brown’s website, and the upcoming 8th edition of his book In the Beginning, now mentions this "Heaven on Earth" interpretation of Genesis 1:8a and he credits pastors Enyart and Rodriguez for this idea. See the Bob's Writings section of KGOV.com to read the latest version of Bob’s article (and for links to the relevant sections of Walt’s website). Thank you TOL for your valuable suggestions!

Email: From Walt Brown to Bob Enyart on March 22, 2005:
Dear Bob, I like your proposal concerning Genesis 1:8a, and after much thought, have decided to include it in the draft of the 8th edition (and at our web site) as one of five possible explanations for Genesis 1:8a. In the attachment, I have credited Pastor Diego Rodriguez and you as the originators of this very attractive explanation. As you will see in Endnote 24 on page 316, a similar suggestion was made by Pastor Diego Rodriguez. I am writing a similar email to Diego and enclosing an up-to-date pdf of the canopy section of In the Beginning. Are there any changes that you feel should be made? (Notice that space is at a premium.) If both you and Diego would like me to forward to each of you the other's email, I will do so. That way you can correspond directly with each other. Thank you for sending me your explanation. -Walt

Again, thanks to TOL! -Bob Enyart
 

Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
OK, so I feel really silly writing anything to someone named "Sleepy Time," but, here goes...

Sleepy Time wrote: No TV affiliate had ever put [Enyart] on (despite funding) after 11 or midnight and for good reason.

Sleepy Time, I imagine you're just making this up because you're tired, and tend to get cranky, but...
yes, our flagship station, Denver's 5-million-watt TV 53 KWHD (broadcast and cable), aired my live show for a couple years at 10 p.m., and there were various affiliates through the years that aired my show at all kinds of hours from morning to afternoon and prime-time, although we produced it as a late-night talk show. Regarding funding, while the vast majority of Christian TV programs pay for airtime, Bob Enayrt Live aired in about 80 markets on three networks (LeSEA, Cornerstone, & America's Voice), from Honolulu to Orlando, without paying for airtime. (Get that Sleepy: it was "no" funding, not "despite" funding). So, perhaps you're going for a record of the most possible errors in a single sentence, I don't know, but then, you followed up with this:

Sleepy: "...when you attempt to be some sort of media celeb, can't you... stop giving us our Lord and Savior's message thru your warped and biased interpretation???"

Sleepy, when you say things like this, aren't you aware that you're doing just what you're accusing? That is, you're accusing others of connecting their social/political beliefs to their view of Christianity, and by criticizing such, you are doing the same exact thing. So, if you are correct and I am in error about some particular issue, since you choose to level an accusation without any content, we can't evaluate the merits of any case you may have. And I don't get to these boards often enough to follow up. So, if you have the incllination, call into my radio show sometime (see signature below), and identify one specific area of disagreement, and let's discuss it. Thanks, -Bob
 

PureX

Well-known member
Bob Enyart said:
Sleepy, when you say things like this, aren't you aware that you're doing just what you're accusing? That is, you're accusing others of connecting their social/political beliefs to their view of Christianity, and by criticizing such, you are doing the same exact thing. So, if you are correct and I am in error about some particular issue, since you choose to level an accusation without any content, we can't evaluate the merits of any case you may have. And I don't get to these boards often enough to follow up. So, if you have the inclination, call into my radio show sometime (see signature below), and identify one specific area of disagreement, and let's discuss it. Thanks, -Bob
Hmmmm, so by making an observation about someone else, we become what we claim to have observed?

So if I see a man stealing a bicycle, and I shout: "Hey, that man's a thief!", I become a thief as well, for having made such an observation? I mean, I admit that I may be incorrect in my assessment of this man's behavior. Perhaps the bicycle owner gave the man permission to break the lock and ride the bicycle home. But I still don't see how I become a thief for having made this observation about the man even if it's an errant observation. Maybe I've "stolen" the man's good reputation - is that it?

Bob, perhaps you should have addressed "Sleepy Time's" comments about you directly, instead of playing the "Nuh-Uh, you did!" game. That game's for grade school kids. And "Sleepy Time" did at least give you some idea about where his comments were coming from:
The downside of Enyart is that he (and many others) attempt to position his radical right wing beliefs as some hybrid Christian truth. No TV affiliate had ever put him on (despite funding) after 11 or midnight and for good reason. In his "Politically Incorrect" appearances he waters down his "message" (is that by network dictate Bob or just that in prime time you would come off a Fred Phelps-like idiot?)

Your "nicer than God" attack on lukewarm believers is spot on.
However you retaliate with a "meaner than God" approach?
Sadly many of your "disciples" here at TOL buy into your mantra hook, line, and sinker.

But, when you attempt to be some sort of media celeb, can't you, and Phelps, and Falwell, and Hinn, etc...etc...stop giving us our Lord and Savior's message thru your warped and biased interpretation???"

Do you believe that your personality is "warping" your interpretation of scripture at all? If not, do you believe that the personalities of these other biblical 'luminaries' that "Sleepy Time" mentioned are warping their interpretation of scripture, whenever their interpretation disagrees with yours? And if so, how do you account for yourself being the only "inerrant" bible luminary around? Doesn't that seem somewhat unlikely, even to you?

And if you do agree that there are times when your personality might be warping your interpretation of scripture, then wouldn't you also have to agree that you don't know when, or how often this might be occurring? After all, if you knew this you would already have corrected it. And if it is the case that your personality warps your interpretation of scripture, on what do you base your credibility as a bible luminary?

Seems to me that this would be just the sort of observation (accusation?) that you'd want to nip in the bud right away, rather than dismiss it with silly grade school arguments like "Nuh-uh, you did!". Don't you think?
 
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