Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

cgaviria

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Whoever ends up being saved, otherwise called the elect, do not go to heaven, hence why Jesus Christ said this,
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5 [NIV])
This saying is a fulfillment of this prophecy in this Psalm,
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Psalm 37:11 [KJV])
So where do the elect go? Those who are elect stay on the earth, since the earth is the true promised land to those who are elect. The promised land of Israel was a type and foreshadow of a greater land the people of God will acquire, and it is the entire earth. This is why there is a second coming of Jesus Christ, to visibly and literally take possession of the earth, in which case the earth will finally become his at the last trumpet blast,
And the seventh angel trumped. And there were great voices in the heaven, saying, the kingdom of the world is become of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign into the eons of the eons. (Revelation of John 11:15 [ABP])
Which also fulfills this prophecy,
I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father. Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery." (Psalm 2:7-9 [NIV])
It will be at his return, that the trumpet blasts will begin to sound,
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31 [NIV])
[16] For the Lord himself in a word of command by the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, shall descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise up first. [17] Thereupon we the living, the ones remaining, together with them shall be seized in clouds, for meeting the Lord in the air, and thus at all times with the Lord we shall be.
(I Thessalonians 4:16-17 [ABP])
And at the last trumpet blast, not only will the Lord take possession of the earth, but also all the elect be instantly changed into imperishable and immortal bodies that do not grow old and do not die,
[51] Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not indeed all sleep, but all shall be changed, [52] in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For it shall trump, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For it is necessary this corruption to put on incorruptibility, and this mortal to put on immortality. [54] But whenever this corruptible should have put on incorruptibility, and this mortal should have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word having been written, Death was swallowed down in victory.
(I Corinthians 15:51-54 [ABP])
It is also at the last trumpet blast that the elect who are dead will be resurrected, which is the first resurrection,
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6 [NIV])
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Daniel 12:1-3 [KJV])
And so, at the last trumpet blast, once all the elect have been changed into new bodies, they will then be gathered by angels to meet the Lord in the air, where those who were raised from the dead will be gathered first, and then the rest who were already alive will be gathered after. And so, from there, just as the Israelites took control of their plot of land over time,
But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land. (Exodus 23:29-30 [NIV])
So will the elect take possession of the earth over time after the trumpet blasts. Each of the elect will then be given authority to rule on the earth just as the Israelites ruled over their plot of land, which fulfills these prophecies,
To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations-- that one 'will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery' --just as I have received authority from my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27 [NIV])
The one who conquers,I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. (Revelation 3:21 [ESV])
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. (Romans 4:13 [NIV])
"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." (Daniel 12:13 [NIV])
And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’ (Daniel 7:27 [ESV])
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Daniel 2:44 [KJV])
And also coincides with this parable,
"'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' (Luke 19:17-19 [NIV])
Each of the elect will be given a different measure of authority to rule on the earth, and the elect will also be given authority to judge, which fulfills these scriptures,
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? (1 Corinthians 6:2 [ESV])
Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! (1 Corinthians 6:3 [ESV])
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4 [ESV])
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 [NIV])
This period of rulership will last for a thousand years, before another period of a new heaven and new earth begins, wherein the elect that ruled on the earth for one thousand years, will then receive an allotment in a new city whose architect is God, a city of gold that descends from heaven onto the earth, and will be called the New Jerusalem. It is when this new city descends from heaven, that those who stored treasures in heaven for safekeeping will then receive their treasures in this new city to come, which will exist on a new earth,
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (Matthew 6:20 [NIV])
For both in my bonds you sympathized; and the seizure of your possessions with joy you accepted, knowing to have in yourselves a better possession in heavens, and abiding. (Hebrews 10:34 [ABP])
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2 [KJV])
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (Revelation 21:2-3 [NIV])
So, this is why the elect do not go to heaven, since according to scripture, the elect are appointed to live on this earth, and also in the new earth, in which case the elect will first be given immortality and authority to rule in this earth, and then will also be given wealth beyond measure in the new earth.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Whoever ends up being saved, otherwise called the elect, do not go to heaven, hence why Jesus Christ said this,

Greetings cgaviria!

Who are those who the Lord will bring with Him when He descends from heaven?:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever"
(1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Thanks!
 

cgaviria

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Greetings cgaviria!

Who are those who the Lord will bring with Him when He descends from heaven?:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever"
(1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Thanks!

His holy angels, hence,

And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, (2 Thessalonians 1:7 [NLT])

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. (Matthew 25:31 [NIV])

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. (Matthew 16:27 [NIV])

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38 [NIV])
 

cgaviria

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So you think that it is the angels who sleep in death who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven?:

"those who sleep in death...we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

Thanks!

No, it is the elect who sleep in death, that will then be gathered by the angels,

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:31 [NIV])

That Jesus Christ came with when he descended,

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. (Matthew 25:31 [NIV])

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16 [ESV])
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No, it is the elect who sleep in death, that will then be gathered by the angels,

It is also the elect who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Since it will be elect who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven then we know that the same elect are in heaven now.

After all, it is impossible the elect can be with the Lord when He descends from heaven unless they are in heaven when He begins to descend.
 

cgaviria

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It is also the elect who will be with the Lord Jesus when he descends from heaven:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Since it will be elect who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven then we know that the same elect are in heaven now.

After all, it is impossible the elect can be with the Lord when He descends from heaven unless they are in heaven when He begins to descend.

Stubborn are we? I just showed you several scriptures demonstrating that the Lord returns with angels. What need would the elect have to be gathered by angels if they were already with Jesus Christ? Or to meet the Lord in the air if they were already with him? Or to be risen from the dead if they were already alive in heaven?

The Lord Jesus Christ descends with his holy angels with a trumpet call, and at the last trumpet, the dead will be raised, upon which they, along with those who are alive, will be gathered together by angels and taken to meet the Lord in the air. This is exactly how it will happen when reading and harmonizing all the scriptures in reference to the second coming.

I perceive you lack an understanding on what death is like. I suggest you read this other study I posted here http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...o-Resurrections-and-the-Lake-of-Fire-Judgment , because if you cannot understand death and the state of the dead and resurrection, you will also not understand other matters.
 

jamie

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Since it will be elect who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven then we know that the same elect are in heaven now.

After all, it is impossible the elect can be with the Lord when He descends from heaven unless they are in heaven when He begins to descend.

:rotfl: Good one, Jerry. Very creative. But it's a false conclusion.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Stubborn are we? I just showed you several scriptures demonstrating that the Lord returns with angels. What need would the elect have to be gathered by angels if they were already with Jesus Christ? Or to meet the Lord in the air if they were already with him? Or to be risen from the dead if they were already alive in heaven?

You confuse the appearing of the Lord Jesus when the saints will be caught up in the air with the Lord Jesus' return to earth.

Now please tell me who are these who are described as sleeping in death are:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Are you going to argue it will be angels who will descend from heaven with the LORD? If so you must argue that these angels sleep in death. If you are not willing to argue that then tell me who will be in the clouds when the living saints are caught up to be in the air--"be caught up together with them in the clouds."
 

cgaviria

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You confuse the appearing of the Lord Jesus when the saints will be caught up in the air with the Lord Jesus' return to earth.

Now please tell me who are these who are described as sleeping in death are:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:13-17).​

Are you going to argue it will be angels who will descend from heaven with the LORD? If so you must argue that these angels sleep in death. If you are not willing to argue that then tell me who will be in the clouds when the living saints are caught up to be in the air--"be caught up together with them in the clouds."

The catching up in the air of the saints happens at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Or why do you suppose that a trumpet call will sound in both passages speaking of the same event?

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31 [NIV])

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16 [NIV])

And yes I am going to argue that it will be angels that will descend from heaven with Jesus Christ because that is what is written,

And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, (2 Thessalonians 1:7 [NLT])

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. (Matthew 25:31 [NIV])

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. (Matthew 16:27 [NIV])

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” (Mark 8:38 [NIV])

And it is when he descends with the angels, that the elect will then be raised from the dead, to then be gathered by angels, hence,

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:31 [NIV])
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The catching up in the air of the saints happens at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Why do you not answer my question since you have all of this figured out?

Are you going to argue it will be angels who will descend from heaven with the LORD? If so you must argue that these angels sleep in death. If you are not willing to argue that then tell me who will be in the clouds when the living saints are caught up to be in the air--"be caught up together with them in the clouds."​
 

cgaviria

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Why do you not answer my question since you have all of this figured out?

Are you going to argue it will be angels who will descend from heaven with the LORD? If so you must argue that these angels sleep in death. If you are not willing to argue that then tell me who will be in the clouds when the living saints are caught up to be in the air--"be caught up together with them in the clouds."​

Are you still so slow to understanding? It is those who are alive that will be caught up with those who were just resurrected from the dead, to meet the Lord in the air who descended with his angels. They will be gathered precisely by these angels that the Lord first descended with. This is the answer to your question, which I have repeated several times and have shown you in scripture, and yes I have all this figured out. Either take it or leave it. Not going to argue with stubborn folk.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Then tell me who Paul is referring to when he speaks of those who sleep and will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven.

Before Christ descends from the clouds he must ascend to the clouds. We ascend with him and we descend on the Mount of Olives.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
For anyone interested in the truth I say that those in "bold" in these verses are talking about the saints who are now in heaven with the LORD:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever"
(1 Thess.4:13-17).​

The words "sleep in death" are referring to the believers who have died physically. And the ones who will Jesus will "bring" with Him when He descends from heaven will be the same prople, those "who have fallen asleep in him."

It is impossible for those people to descend from heaven with the Lord Jesus unless they are already in heaven.

And the same people who will descend with Him are the same ones which the living saints will meet in the clouds when they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Therefore, when believers die physically they go to heaven. Simple as can be!
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
What? An unknown resurrection? Did the holy Spirit miss one?

No, here in "bold" is how Paul refers to those who are now in heaven:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life"
(2 Thess.5:1-4).​

Those who have died physically are in heaven now in a disembodied state and when the Lord descends from heaven they will be with Him and then they will be resurrected (1 Thess.4:16).
 
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