Gideon, YHWH & "the Angel of the LORD"

[beameup]

And there came the Angel of the LORD [YHWH], and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. And the Angel of the LORD [YHWH] appeared unto Gideon, and said unto him, The LORD [YHWH] is with thee, thou mighty man of valor.
And Gideon said unto Him, Oh my Lord ['Adown], if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
And the LORD looked upon Gideon, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
Judges 6:11-14

The LORD = YHWH
The Angel of the LORD = YHWH

 

[NWL]

And there came the Angel of the LORD [YHWH], and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. And the Angel of the LORD [YHWH] appeared unto Gideon, and said unto him, The LORD [YHWH] is with thee, thou mighty man of valor.
And Gideon said unto Him, Oh my Lord ['Adown], if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
And the LORD looked upon Gideon, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

The LORD = YHWH
The Angel of the LORD = YHWH

I can see your confusion, I see this differently when reading the texts you've presented. The "Angel of the Lord" is a messenger of God here (Hebrew word Malak [Angel] means messenger), the Angel therefore speaks, and is spoken to, as he is YHWH himself since he is YHWH representative being a messenger.

This same principle of a representative speaking as if he/they are the sender can be found in other biblical accounts, read the following incident in their parallel accounts.

(Matthew 8:5-10) "..When he [Jesus] entered Ca·perʹna·um, an army officer came to him, pleading with him and saying: “Sir, my servant is laid up in the house with paralysis, and he is suffering terribly.” He said to him: “When I get there, I will cure him.” 8 The army officer replied: “Sir, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof... When Jesus heard that, he was amazed.."

(Luke 7:2-9) "..Now an army officer’s slave, who was dear to him, was seriously ill and about to pass away. When he heard about Jesus, he [the army officer] sent some elders of the Jews to him to ask him to come and make his slave well. They came up to Jesus and began to plead with him earnestly, saying: “He is worthy of your granting him this, 5 for he loves our nation and he himself built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them. But when he was not far from the house, the army officer had already sent friends to say to him: “Sir, do not bother, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof"... When Jesus heard these things..”

The accounts above are excatly the same apart from the speakers are different. Notice, in Matthews account it reads as if the Army officer speaks to Jesus directly, but in Luke's account the Army officer sends Jewish elders and friends to speak with Jesus and doesn't speak with Jesus directly. The reason why Matthews account is written this way is because it leaves out the middle man, likewise in the account in Judges, since the messenger is Gods representative and spokesperson he is to referred to and speaks as if he is YHWH the same way the speaker in Matthew chapter 8 speaks, and is spoken to, as if he is actually the army officer.

 

[chair]

I can see you're confusion, I see this differently when reading the texts you've presented. The "Angel of the Lord" is a messenger of God here (Hebrew word Malak [Angel] means messenger), the Angel therefore speaks, and is spoken to, as he is YHWH himself since he is YHWH representative being a messenger. ...

Very good point. There are examples from the "Old" Testament as well. Mr. Beameup does his cause no good by twisting verses to match his thesis.

 

[beameup]

I can see you're confusion

Yes, like: "let us make man in our image".
Very confusing, huh? :rotfl:

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not - Jeremiah 5:21

 

[beameup]

And the Angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. - Genesis 22:11-12


Abraham offering up a sacrifice of his "only son" in obedience to God's command. Genesis 22:1-12
Abraham thus understands God's plan of the "Father" offering up his "Only Son" as a sacrifice.

 

[chair]

Yes, like: "let us make man in our image".
Very confusing, huh? :rotfl:

That is a separate topic, which you have already opened a thread about. And no, that verse doesn't mean that the Trinity appears in Genesis. And no, that verse does not make your nonsense in this thread any better.

 

[beameup]

That is a separate topic, which you have already opened a thread about. And no, that verse doesn't mean that the Trinity appears in Genesis. And no, that verse does not make your nonsense in this thread any better.

To you I suppose it would appear that your god is babbling to himself.
Perhaps your god has a mental disorder? :dizzy:

Also I [Isaiah] heard the voice of the Lord, saying,
Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?
Then said I [Isaiah], Here am I; send me. - Isaiah 6:8

 

[chair]

you are misinterpreting the verse in Judges. That is what this thread is about. You are simply wrong, but won't admit it.

 

[beameup]

"the Angel of the LORD [YHWH] appeared unto Gideon, and said"
"the LORD [YHWH] looked upon Gideon, and said"
Same conversation, same speaker
Even a third-grader could figure it out.

Here is another conundrum for you to ponder:
And he [Jacob/Israel] blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, the Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads [Ephraim & Manasseh]. - Genesis 48:15-16a
'elohiym - 'elohiym - mal'ak

or........
Also I heard the voice of the Lord [YHWH], saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? - Isaiah 6:8

 

[chair]

"the Angel of the LORD [YHWH] appeared unto Gideon, and said"
"the LORD [YHWH] looked upon Gideon, and said"
Same conversation, same speaker
Even a third-grader could figure it out.

Here is another conundrum for you to ponder:
And he [Jacob/Israel] blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, the Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads [Ephraim & Manasseh]. - Genesis 48:15-16a
'elohiym - 'elohiym - mal'ak

or........
Also I heard the voice of the Lord [YHWH], saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? - Isaiah 6:8

Absolutely right. I should not bother answering you. Thanks for the advice.

 

[NWL]

Yes, like: "let us make man in our image".
Very confusing, huh? :rotfl:

Gen 1:26? I don't get why this scripture was shown, It's also very foolish for you to ignore what I've written and simply fight scripture with scripture which in the end proves nothing. Throwing Gen 1:26 doesn't discredit a single thing in regards to what I wrote, you simply did it because of your lack of ability to defend false claims invented by yourself.

Next time you come to me, explain how the reasoning I presented was incorrect and then you can present scripture with what you perceive to be the correct interpretation of the scriptures.

Moreover, what does Gen 1:26 have to do with anything?

Answer me this and we can see if your argument holds any weight, who were the three men who Abraham saw in Genesis 18?

(Genesis 18:2) "..He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground.."

Also, regarding the verse I initially presented to you in my first post, who entreated Jesus regarding the Army officers slave, the Army officer himself or the Jewish Elders?

 

[beameup]

Answer me this and we can see if your argument holds any weight, who were the three men who Abraham saw in Genesis 18?

Answer me this, who was Joshua worshipping?

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship , and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 5:13-15

 

[chair]

Answer me this, who was Joshua worshipping?

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship , and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 5:13-15

The Hebrew doesn't say "and did worship".

 

[beameup]

The Hebrew doesn't say "and did worship".

shachah שָׁחָה + Holy Ground
sound familiar?
And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. - Exodus 3:5

The Torah is a virtual "mine field" of clues left by ruach 'elohim to lead you to the right conclusion. :sherlock:
Of course, if you are blind, then the "clues" become illusive at best.

 

[chair]

shachah שָׁחָה + Holy Ground
sound familiar?
And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. - Exodus 3:5

The Torah is a virtual "mine field" of clues left by ruach 'elohim to lead you to the right conclusion. :sherlock:
Of course, if you are blind, then the "clues" become illusive at best.

I know full well what the Hebrew verb means.
Did you ever pause to think why there are only obscure "clues" to what you think is the most important message of the OT?

 

[beameup]

I know full well what the Hebrew verb means.
Did you ever pause to think why there are only obscure "clues" to what you think is the most important message of the OT?

What is virtually "invisible" to some is blatantly "obvious" to others.

Declare this in the house of Jacob, and publish it in Judah, saying:
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding;
which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not - Jeremiah 5:21

The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,
Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house,
which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear,
and hear not: for they are a rebellious house. - Ezekiel 12:2

etc., etc., etc.

 

[NWL]

Answer me this, who was Joshua worshipping?

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship , and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 5:13-15

As chair said, the word there doesn't necessarily mean worship, worship in Hebrew didn't only have one meaning as it does in English today. The Hebrew word shachah can either mean to worship like the worship given to God, or to show homage and respect to someone. Therefore it's down to the context of the scripture to determine what type of shachah was given, be it godly worship or simply respect.

More importantly, why didn't you answer my questions??? Why did you instead deflect and try and answer my question with another question that doesn't even negate my reasoning.

Answer the questions I asked then we can continue, here they are again:

Answer me this and we can see if your argument holds any weight, who were the three men who Abraham saw in Genesis 18?

(Genesis 18:2) "..He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground.."

Also, regarding the verse I initially presented to you in my first post, who entreated Jesus regarding the Army officers slave, the Army officer himself or the Jewish Elders?

 

[beameup]

I know full well what the Hebrew verb means.
Did you ever pause to think why there are only obscure "clues" to what you think is the most important message of the OT?

Yes, here is one:
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying,
“Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”
Then I [Isaiah] said, “Here am I. Send me!”

He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.’

“Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”
Isaiah 6:8-10

Here is a "riddle" for you to ponder:
And the angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
And when YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
And HE said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. - Exodus 3:2-5

Or how about this "conundrum":
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. - Exodus 24:9-11