ECT Fueing the Fire for the Anti-Semites

[Jerry Shugart]

After the Lord Jesus was resurrected from the dead He spent forty days with His apostle while He personally tutored his Apostles about the things concerning the Kingdom:

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God" (Acts 1:3).​

Of course anyone spending that much time with the King Himself would certainly know much about the Kingdom, especially the most basic things about it. And after forty days the Apostles knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel, as witnessed by this question:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).​

After being personally tutored by the King for forty days they certainly understood one of the most basic facts about the kingdom, that it would be restored to Israel. If they were in error then certainly the King would correct them. But He did no such thing, only telling them that they were not to know when the kingdom would be restored:

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).​

If the kingdom was not going to be restored to Israel then it would make absolutely no sense for the Lord Jesus to say anything at all about its timing. But He did.

But the anti-semites say that because the Jews killed the Lord Jesus that the Jews are no longer is God's plans. They think that the Jews need to be paid back for putting the Lord Jesus to death. This type of thinking has lead to countless instances of Jewish persecution down through the ages and is still rearing its ugly head today. And it will come to a climax when all the nations of the world will attack Jerusalem but when that happens the Lord Jesus will destroy all of those armies (Zech.14:1-4).

There are some people on this forum, mainly the Preterists, who add fuel to the fire by asserting that the LORD is done with the nation of Israel and the only fate remaining for that nation is for them to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

They even go so far as to argue that the Apostles were in error for believing that the LORD would restore the kingdom to Israel even though they had been personally tutored by the King Himself for forty days. They want us to throw our reason to the wind and imagine that they know more about the kingdom than did the Apostles.

All I can say is that I wouldn't want to be in their shoes at the Judgment Seat of Christ, who will judge the living and the dead!

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb.10:31).​

 

[Interplanner]

After the Lord Jesus was resurrected from the dead He spent forty days with His apostle while He personally tutored his Apostles about the things concerning the Kingdom:

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God" (Acts 1:3).​

Of course anyone spending that much time with the King Himself would certainly know much about the Kingdom, especially the most basic things about it. And after forty days the Apostles knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel, as witnessed by this question:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).​

After being personally tutored by the King for forty days they certainly understood one of the most basic facts about the kingdom, that it would be restored to Israel. If they were in error then certainly the King would correct them. But He did no such thing, only telling them that they were not to know when the kingdom would be restored:

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).​

If the kingdom was not going to be restored to Israel then it would make absolutely no sense for the Lord Jesus to say anything at all about its timing. But He did.

But the anti-semites say that because the Jews killed the Lord Jesus that the Jews are no longer is God's plans. They think that the Jews need to be paid back for putting the Lord Jesus to death. This type of thinking has lead to countless instances of Jewish persecution down through the ages and is still rearing its ugly head today. And it will come to a climax when all the nations of the world will attack Jerusalem but when that happens the Lord Jesus will destroy all of those armies (Zech.14:1-4).

There are some people on this forum, mainly the Preterists, who add fuel to the fire by asserting that the LORD is done with the nation of Israel and the only fate remaining for that nation is for them to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

They even go so far as to argue that the Apostles were in error for believing that the LORD would restore the kingdom to Israel even though they had been personally tutored by the King Himself for forty days. They want us to throw our reason to the wind and imagine that they know more about the kingdom than did the Apostles.

All I can say is that I wouldn't want to be in their shoes at the Judgment Seat of Christ, who will judge the living and the dead!

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb.10:31).​

God is no longer dealing with nations as such.

This is your blinder, Jerry, not mine:
And after forty days the Apostles knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel,

He never said a thing about it during his ministry and the 2500 quotes of the OT by the NT (which he taught all through the ministry and the 40 days) have nothing. Nada.

They, like us, ask misguided question.

The way it was answered was the reference to power, which is an administrative or royal term. They would get power. Not the land of Israel. It was the power of the Spirit that he was referring to, to preach the message of the Gospel and the reign of God. There is not the slightest interest in the land in the whole rest of Acts.

You have adopted the modern racialism category. You think anything I say is either for or against the race of Israel, instead of for or against faith by anyone of any race.

Jerusalem and the country was ruined by the rebellion of zealots 'that desolates' (Dan 8:13). That was warned about by christ and he didn't want it to happen. But with that sorry episode of zionism out of the way, any Jewish person can still be a great evangelist. They just need to forget about zionism and futurism, and concentrated on the message of justification like Acts 13 does--which sermon was about Israel's destiny, legacy, history, goal.

The apostles were raised as zealots and were retrieved from it. a hard force to stop! Hard to stop the belief that there might be a supernatural event which would overthrow Rome; it was in several non-Biblical writings in the area at the time.

You don't know very much about that, so you resort to warning us about the fires of hell for believing something different from your 'word of God says' beliefs.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God is no longer dealing with nations as such.

Not now but the Apostles made it plain that in the future the LORD will indeed deal with the nation of Israel.

The way it was answered was the reference to power, which is an administrative or royal term.

The answer which the Lord Jesus gave cannot be isolated from the question:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:6-7).​

The Lord Jesus answered their question in regard to when the kingdom would be restored to Israel by answereing them with words which speak of the time--"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons."

If the kingdom was never going to be restored to Israel then it would make absolutely no sense for the Lord Jesus to tell them that they were not to know when it was going to happen.

But in your zeal to fuel the fire of anti-semitism you assert that the Apostles were wrong for expecting that the kingdom is to be restored to Israel.

How many days were you with the King which He personally tutored you about the things in regard to the kingdom? Why should anyone think that you know more about the kingdom that those who were personally taught about it for forty days by the King Himself?

They would get power.

Yes, when the kingdom will be restored to Israel the Twelve will sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.19:28).​

It will be in the "kingdom," when the kingdom will be "regenerated," when the Twelve will sit upon thrones judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Where do you place that happening in your eschatological timeline?

 

[Interplanner]

Knock it off about anti-Semitism to protect you in your loser theology Jerry. I'm not. But I'm not zionist.

Your theology and background is ridiculously anti-historical so to compensate you pull the anti-semite card, which I knew for months was coming.

There are no involved eschatology timelines. See 2 Peter 3. That's it.

You totally don't understand the power God gave. It was the power to preach and he had told them to wait for power in Lk 24. You have ADD theologically. If the Bible says something, it evaporates from your thinking in a minute.

The power he promised was the power to make the new movement so vital that people would say they were turning the world (Roman, Jewish, Greek, pagan) upside down (Acts 22). sorry you missed the excitement but you have no idea what you are saying.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Knock it off about anti-Semitism to protect you in your loser theology Jerry. I'm not. But I'm not zionist.

Your theology and background is ridiculously anti-historical so to compensate you pull the anti-semite card, which I knew for months was coming.

There are no involved eschatology timelines. See 2 Peter 3. That's it.

You totally don't understand the power God gave. It was the power to preach and he had told them to wait for power in Lk 24. You have ADD theologically. If the Bible says something, it evaporates from your thinking in a minute.

The power he promised was the power to make the new movement so vital that people would say they were turning the world (Roman, Jewish, Greek, pagan) upside down (Acts 22). sorry you missed the excitement but you have no idea what you are saying.

Matthew 10:23 (KJV)

Poor IP.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are no involved eschatology timelines.

Evidently this is way above your meager understanding. Did the Twelve sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the regenerated kingdom is the past?:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.19:28).​

It will be in the "kingdom," when the kingdom will be "regenerated," when the Twelve will sit upon thrones judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Do you think that happened in the past?

Or will it happen in the future?

 

[jamie]

"And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-31)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-31)

Yes?

 

[Interplanner]

Evidently this is way above your meager understanding. Did the Twelve sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the regenerated kingdom is the past?:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.19:28).​

It will be in the "kingdom," when the kingdom will be "regenerated," when the Twelve will sit upon thrones judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Do you think that happened in the past?

Or will it happen in the future?

It is true in Christ for the same reason that I am not a zionist nor anti-semitic. It doesn't have to do with ethne Israel as we know it and as found on world maps. It is about the other Israel by faith that has been operating since this age dawned.

Evidently "in Christ" is above your grasp.

You people always come down to 'in the past?' or 'in the future?' dead ends. it has been this way for 70 years and there is a lot of dull gray matter that is stuck in mental ruts, that have nothing to do with the categories found in the NT.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You people always come down to 'in the past?' or 'in the future?' dead ends.

For you people it is always in the past. So tell us poor uninformed dispensationalists when this happened in the past:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.19:28).​

It will be in the "kingdom," when the kingdom will be "regenerated," when the Twelve will sit upon thrones judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. When didthat happen in the past?

 

[Interplanner]

For you people it is always in the past. So tell us poor uninformed dispensationalists when this happened in the past:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.19:28).​

It will be in the "kingdom," when the kingdom will be "regenerated," when the Twelve will sit upon thrones judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. When didthat happen in the past?

The apostles 'reign' over the kingdom now. they are its foundation, Rev 21. We are grounded/founded on their docs. The kingdom started in Christ. The power was conferred at Pentecost. That is all there is to know about the kingdom, not your confused monarchy wishes which mean firing up Judaism all over again.

This is not theoretical. Get to work in God's mission and kingdom and then you will know it is NOW. Pray, ask for God to work and grow your various ministries. Stop the doctrinaire games.

 

[northwye]

It is a fact that some people who were once followers of dispensationalism-Christian Zionism have understood that this theology does not agree with a number of New Testament texts and a few Old Testament texts also, like Haggai 2: 9, and they have come out of this set of false doctrines. But here on TOL and on ECT people arguing for some kind of theology different from the whole counsel of God (Acts 20: 27) which is Christian Zionism, though sometimes not admitted and claimed to be different from it, no one ever seems to come out of it.

Almost all of the people I have come across on the Internet in the last fifteen years who are interested in the remnant were once dispensationalists but left that theology.

I attended a Southern Baptist church in my home town when a teenager many years ago. I do not remember the preacher then teaching dispensationalism. When I was 18 and a Freshman in college I attended another Southern Baptist church in that college town for a while. I do not remember that preacher focusing on the doctrines of dispensationalism. But I do remember that many in that church - college age people - were interested in W.A. Criswell of Dallas, which points to some interest and belief in dispensationalism, I did not know anything about the issue of dispensationalism then and why it is false, I left the church world mostly for almost three decades. When I became a Christian I did not join a church, but was critical of the churches. Not long afterward I began to learn what the issue of dispensationalism was about. I listened to a few dispensationalists on AM and FM radio where most radio preachers were dispensationalist then, though they did not talk much about its doctrines. But I was never attracted to its doctrines. I read many of the books by Francis Schaeffer, who had by then moved partly out of the church world and was running a small home congregation in Switzerland. No, Schaeffer was not a five point Calvinist, was an evangelical, and not into the amillennial view on prophecy. He was also an intellect to some extent. Because of the popularity of his books, Schaeffer was a kind of celebrity. He did not, though, focus on criticism of dispensationalism. Neither does Dean Gotcher, though what he does say can be applied to dispensationalism, especially the method of argument by those who promote it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The apostles 'reign' over the kingdom now.

So this is happening now?:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

Of course you are wrong. That will not happen until judgment and justice will be executed on the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Almost all of the people I have come across on the Internet in the last fifteen years who are interested in the remnant were once dispensationalists but left that theology.

Almost all the people I have come across with your beliefs in the last several years no longer believe the Bible.

 

[Interplanner]

So this is happening now?:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

Of course you are wrong. That will not happen until judgment and justice will be executed on the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).​

So this is happening now?:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).​

Of course you are wrong. That will not happen until judgment and justice will be executed on the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).​

These things are true now in Christ and will be true in the NHNE. All I dispute with you is a separate way, separate time in a separate 'millenium' in a separate country, Judea. It does not mean that.

"God has made Jesus Lord and Christ" Acts 2 The resurrection was his enthronement, v30-31, foreseen by none other than David.
"God did this (the sacrifice of Christ) to demonstrate his justice at the present time..." Rom 3. He is now "just and justifier" of the person who has faith.

The Christian ("In Christ") meaning exists in the preaching of this message, Rom 16:25's 'by my gospel and the proclamation.' It was/is never meant as a civic authority, a replacement for Roman admin, a monarchy. Never. It is never going to be on this earth in a restored Judaism and Israel. It is through the power of the apostles preaching from that time on to today.

 

[northwye]

It may be that almost all who are followers of Christian Zionism are in the church world, and it is a fact that in the evangelical denominations a huge percentage of church members are Christian Zionists.

And so, for most in the church world, Christian Zionism, because it is followed by a vast majority of people in the evangelical churches, cannot have characteristics of a cult.

Walter Martin in his book Kingdom of the Cults does not list dispensationalism as a religious cult. But - what he says can be applied to dispensationalism.

Wartin says "It is most significant that those who have written
on the cults have only recently stressed the
authority of the Scriptures as a criterion for measuring
either the truth or falsity of cultic claims."

Teaching doctrines that do not agree with some scripture is a characteristic of a religious cult.

Martin says "The biblical perspective, where false teachers and
false teachings are concerned, is that we are to
have compassion and love for those who are enmeshed in the teachings of the false prophets, but we are
to vigorously oppose the teachings, with our primary objective
the winning of the soul and not so much
the argument."

Martin hits on an important point in saying that those who oppose the teachings of the Christian religious cults should not focus mainly on winning the argument. The cult people, on the other hand focus on winning the argument by use of various tactics of the dialectic. Romans 1: 28-29 lists several traits of people who engage in behavior there said to result from God giving them over to. One of these traits is quarreling.

Martin goes on to say "Through the
manipulation of terminology, it is therefore obvious th
at the cultist has the Christian at a distinct
disadvantage, particularly in the realm of the gr
eat fundamental doctrines of biblical theology. The
question is, then, how can the interested Christian solve that problem, if indeed it can be solved at all?
In short, is there some common denominator that one
can use when faced with a
cultist of any particular
variety, and, if so, how does one put this principle into practice?
The cults capitalize on the almost total inability of the average Christian to understand the subtle art
of redefinition in the realm of biblical theology. "

"On encountering a cultist, then, always remember that you are dealing with a person who is familiar
with Christian terminology, and who has carefully redefined
it to fit the system of thought he or she
now embraces."

"The well-trained cultist will carefully avoid definition
of terms concerning cardinal doctrines
such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Atonement, the bodily resurrection of our Lord, the process
of salvation by grace and justification by faith. If pressed
in these areas, he will redefine the terms to fit
the semantic framework of orthodoxy unless he is forced to define his terms explicitly."

Could it be that in a quarrel some Christian Zionists will carefully avoid defining their theology and carefully avoid defining their interpretation of certain key scriptures?

Martin says "...cultic belief systems are characterized by genuine antagonism on a personal level since
the cultist almost always identifies his dislike of
the Christian message with the messenger who holds
such opposing beliefs. "

He hit the nail on the head here.

"The identification of opposing beliefs with the individual
in the framework of antagonism leads the
cultist almost always to reject the individual as well
as the belief, a problem closely linked with closed-
mindedness and one that is extremely difficult to deal with in general dialogue with cultists."

The Christian who defends the whole counsel of God should not make use of the same mindset and tactics of the Christian Zionist in attacking individuals but should refrain from doing so.

There is much more in Martin's book which can be applied to Christian Zionism and its followers.

http://www.eindtijdinbeeld.nl/EiB-Bibliotheek/Boeken/KingdomOfTheCultsWalterMartin.pdf

 

[Danoh]

Almost all the people I have come across with your beliefs in the last several years no longer believe the Bible.

And any Baptist is Dispensational in many an aspect within their basic frame of reference.

northwye remains...clueless...to the obvious.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The apostles 'reign' over the kingdom now. they are its foundation, Rev 21. We are grounded/founded on their docs. The kingdom started in Christ. The power was conferred at Pentecost. That is all there is to know about the kingdom, not your confused monarchy wishes which mean firing up Judaism all over again.

This is not theoretical. Get to work in God's mission and kingdom and then you will know it is NOW. Pray, ask for God to work and grow your various ministries. Stop the doctrinaire games.

:chuckle:

Matthew 10:23 (KJV)

 

[Interplanner]

Almost all the people I have come across with your beliefs in the last several years no longer believe the Bible.

40 years for me Jerry, and going strong.

When I heard a sermon on the sermon of Acts 13 for the first time, after being a "Christian" for 10 years, I knew I had never really heard the Bible speak for itself. It was always people trying to make the Bible speak certain things over and over.

 

[steko]

It may be that almost all who are followers of Christian Zionism are in the church world, and it is a fact that in the evangelical denominations a huge percentage of church members are Christian Zionists.

And so, for most in the church world, Christian Zionism, because it is followed by a vast majority of people in the evangelical churches, cannot have characteristics of a cult.

Walter Martin in his book Kingdom of the Cults does not list dispensationalism as a religious cult. But - what he says can be applied to dispensationalism.

Wartin says "It is most significant that those who have written
on the cults have only recently stressed the
authority of the Scriptures as a criterion for measuring
either the truth or falsity of cultic claims."

Teaching doctrines that do not agree with some scripture is a characteristic of a religious cult.

Martin says "The biblical perspective, where false teachers and
false teachings are concerned, is that we are to
have compassion and love for those who are enmeshed in the teachings of the false prophets, but we are
to vigorously oppose the teachings, with our primary objective
the winning of the soul and not so much
the argument."

Martin hits on an important point in saying that those who oppose the teachings of the Christian religious cults should not focus mainly on winning the argument. The cult people, on the other hand focus on winning the argument by use of various tactics of the dialectic. Romans 1: 28-29 lists several traits of people who engage in behavior there said to result from God giving them over to. One of these traits is quarreling.

Martin goes on to say "Through the
manipulation of terminology, it is therefore obvious th
at the cultist has the Christian at a distinct
disadvantage, particularly in the realm of the gr
eat fundamental doctrines of biblical theology. The
question is, then, how can the interested Christian solve that problem, if indeed it can be solved at all?
In short, is there some common denominator that one
can use when faced with a
cultist of any particular
variety, and, if so, how does one put this principle into practice?
The cults capitalize on the almost total inability of the average Christian to understand the subtle art
of redefinition in the realm of biblical theology. "

"On encountering a cultist, then, always remember that you are dealing with a person who is familiar
with Christian terminology, and who has carefully redefined
it to fit the system of thought he or she
now embraces."

"The well-trained cultist will carefully avoid definition
of terms concerning cardinal doctrines
such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Atonement, the bodily resurrection of our Lord, the process
of salvation by grace and justification by faith. If pressed
in these areas, he will redefine the terms to fit
the semantic framework of orthodoxy unless he is forced to define his terms explicitly."

Could it be that in a quarrel some Christian Zionists will carefully avoid defining their theology and carefully avoid defining their interpretation of certain key scriptures?

Martin says "...cultic belief systems are characterized by genuine antagonism on a personal level since
the cultist almost always identifies his dislike of
the Christian message with the messenger who holds
such opposing beliefs. "

He hit the nail on the head here.

"The identification of opposing beliefs with the individual
in the framework of antagonism leads the
cultist almost always to reject the individual as well
as the belief, a problem closely linked with closed-
mindedness and one that is extremely difficult to deal with in general dialogue with cultists."

The Christian who defends the whole counsel of God should not make use of the same mindset and tactics of the Christian Zionist in attacking individuals but should refrain from doing so.

There is much more in Martin's book which can be applied to Christian Zionism and its followers.

http://www.eindtijdinbeeld.nl/EiB-Bibliotheek/Boeken/KingdomOfTheCultsWalterMartin.pdf

Walter Martin was a Historic Premillennialist, a position which most anti-dispensationalists on this forum would also disagree with.