Sheila B
Member
Ditto. I am enjoying the MAD very much. It is my desire to learn a lot no matter the outcome.
For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
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Ditto. I am enjoying the MAD very much. It is my desire to learn a lot no matter the outcome.
Sheila B
Member
Here's where I see differently. It seems to me that until Paul and Baranbas are "separated" by the Holy Spirit and sent out by the Church elders of Antioch, they are still merely "prophets and teachers" no different than any other disciple or deacon. Acts 13:1
It seems that this ordination they receive from the Anticohean Church is an apostleship- they become on par with the Twelve. From this point, they are not only ranked as apostles, but they move about freely now. Acts 13:2,3
Prior to this ordination to apostleship, Barnabas goes to Tarsus to get Paul and they spend a full year with the Church in Anticoh.
First Barnabas is sent by the Jerusalem apostles to Antioch-
Acts 11:22
As the Church in Antioch is a large number Acts 11:24,25,26
From Acts 13:1,2,3 they have a new "gift" or new powers given by the church.
They also now for the first time have their own "company" so we see Barnabas and Paul are leading the way now. So, they are now "The Church" as far as now they are the ones doing the "sending" versus having been always "sent" prior to Acts 13:1-3
Acts 13:5 ...and they had John to assist them... So, John Mark is Barnabas' and Paul's assistant.
The whole chapter 13 is about the synagogue in Antioch of Pisidia.
Acts 14:1 The are largely rejected at Antioch of Pisidia so go on to Iconium.
Here they again are in the synagogue; but here a great multitude believed both Jews and Greeks.
Up to Acts 14 The message has not changed. Or at least the distinction is not as great as it will be soon.
Here's a key point for me also:
Acts 14:22 ...continue in the Faith, and through many tribulations we must enter the Kingdom of God. Their message has not yet changed as far as we can see.
And this is the biggest part:
Acts 14:23 Now the apostles Barnabas and Paul are ordaining elders in every church... That is an activity that ony apostles (elders) can do. deacons cannot ordain anyone, not even another Deacon. Only an elder (apostle) has the powers or gift to ordain so high an office, indeed the highest office in the church.
It seems to me the change comes after Acts 15 when the Church declares what is necessary for gentiles to belong to their company and what is not.
Sheila B
Member
It seems to me also no accident that Barnabas and Saul are paired up for their special mission by the Holy Spirit.
Barnabas is a Levite. Acts 4:36 He has a name change by the apostles (common at Baptism) and is also an owner of land. Levites are not to own any land. It must have been a big boost in church income for he is named Son of Encouragement. Acts 4:37
More important is that Barnabas is influential in the arena of the Old Priesthood, the Aaronic priesthood which is dying away since the New has come. Jesus calls them old wineskins and New Wine must be poured into new wineskins. That way, Jesus says "both will be preserved." This could be important to MAD.
Barnabas has an influence over the Levites that an outsider could not. Acts 6:7 a great many of the priests are now "obedient to the Faith".
To the Jews, the apostles Barnabas and Paul emphasize Acts 13:39 But to all the Jews, to be "freed" of all that they had might not be desirable. The Levites in particular would have much to give up in terms of their whole life style. Income, housing, animals, food, prestige and their very personhood is wrapped up in being Aaronic priests daily serving in the Temple.
We see envy of this new sect is fierce. Acts 13:44,45
Barnabas is a Levite. Acts 4:36 He has a name change by the apostles (common at Baptism) and is also an owner of land. Levites are not to own any land. It must have been a big boost in church income for he is named Son of Encouragement. Acts 4:37
More important is that Barnabas is influential in the arena of the Old Priesthood, the Aaronic priesthood which is dying away since the New has come. Jesus calls them old wineskins and New Wine must be poured into new wineskins. That way, Jesus says "both will be preserved." This could be important to MAD.
Barnabas has an influence over the Levites that an outsider could not. Acts 6:7 a great many of the priests are now "obedient to the Faith".
To the Jews, the apostles Barnabas and Paul emphasize Acts 13:39 But to all the Jews, to be "freed" of all that they had might not be desirable. The Levites in particular would have much to give up in terms of their whole life style. Income, housing, animals, food, prestige and their very personhood is wrapped up in being Aaronic priests daily serving in the Temple.
We see envy of this new sect is fierce. Acts 13:44,45
Sheila B
Member
Acts 14:23 Is a key turning point. Perhaps.
Are these elders, ordained by the apostles Barnabas and Paul, all Jews? Or are they now ordaining Gentiles to head roles in the church?
The Church has made the hurdle through Peter and Cornelius that Gentiles can receive the Holy Spirit at baptism Acts 10:47
but it is quite another thing for a gentile believer to receive the powers of soul that an apostle has to pass on the Breath of Life that the Eleven got from Jesus John 20:22
and to be a leader of this new Order of Melchisedek.
Maybe the epistles will tell us who and what is happening here?
Are these elders, ordained by the apostles Barnabas and Paul, all Jews? Or are they now ordaining Gentiles to head roles in the church?
The Church has made the hurdle through Peter and Cornelius that Gentiles can receive the Holy Spirit at baptism Acts 10:47
but it is quite another thing for a gentile believer to receive the powers of soul that an apostle has to pass on the Breath of Life that the Eleven got from Jesus John 20:22
and to be a leader of this new Order of Melchisedek.
Maybe the epistles will tell us who and what is happening here?
Sheila B
Member
Verse Acts 14:27 does not seem to indicate that they would ordain Gentiles, since it only calls it "a door of faith being opened for the Gentiles." Not exactly a resounding call to Gentile leadership, yet.
It seems to me that gentiles receiving salvation by water and spirit (tongues of fire) is still something they are marveling over.
Acts 15 opens with the Jewish Believers (of the Circumcision Party, they are named) debating circumcision as needed by these new Gentile Christians.
It seems to me that gentiles receiving salvation by water and spirit (tongues of fire) is still something they are marveling over.
Acts 15 opens with the Jewish Believers (of the Circumcision Party, they are named) debating circumcision as needed by these new Gentile Christians.
The first Gentile apostle, or the first apostle to the Gentiles?
Sheila B
Member
The first non-Jew made an apostle. Just wondering if anyone has found it in Scripture. I am only up to the start of Acts 15 and no Gentiles so far are.
As far as I know Paul was the last apostle. So there are no Gentile apostles.
Sheila B
Member
I'm sorry, Sheila, but I don't understand what you're asking. Can you restate the question, please?
Also, can you demonstrate from scripture why you believe John 3:5 was fulfilled in Paul?
Thanks!
Randy
Sorry Randy, I did not see this question before. I need to figure this out before I can get into more of MAD, and there is much I still want to know. Thanks so much for being so patient.
It seems to me that Paul experienced John 3:5 at his baptism. And that would make him saved and in the Kingdom, wouldn't it?
Jesus is telling Nicodemus about how a person is born again, or born from above. The distinction Jesus makes is that by water and Spirit we enter the kingdom. Someone said in a post: No, that is John's baptism of repentance. So, I took another look.
John baptised with water for repentance. Matthew 3:2 John said Jesus would Matthew 3:11
Jesus does not mention repentance, but He does mention turning away from sin a little later on John 3:19,21 as turning toward the light so our deeds would be seen as done in God.
So, Paul certainly did not repent prior to the light from heaven, but he did "turn toward the light" and obeyed the voice, remaining in fasting and prayer until Ananias showed up. Acts 9:17,18
Whether or not the tongues of fire were apparent, the text does not say, but Paul did receive the water and Spirit of John 3:5 (from Ananias who must have been an apostle or deacon of the Damascus church) and the fire is the Spirit Who appeared as tongues of fire.
There does not seem any possibility for Paul to still be unsaved at this moment in time. As proof of his conversion he preaches alongside the disciples in the synagogues. Acts 9:19,20
Why does MAD need to say Paul was not converted the John 3:5 way?
One more point, a personal reflection of mine. When Jesus "fulfilled all righteousness" by His Own baptism, we see a spiritual reality: as Jesus comes up out of the water, the dove descends, and the Father's Voice announces "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased."
It is my personal thoughts that this is exactly what happens to every person who seeks to follow Jesus by the Way He has shown to be born from above. The heavens opened up (this happens for us) and we are sealed (or inscribed) with the seal of the Holy Trinity at that moment. We are changed by the whole Trinity and we are adopted.
Since sins are forgiven and we have a clear conscience before God by this obedience, it seems God is well pleased and we are His Sons, indwelt by the Spirit, hearts cleansed by the Fire:
Acts 15:9 and Acts 14:22 and Acts 2:38 and Acts 2:41
These baptisms are the born from above of John 3:5 and they are salvation, are they not?
Sheila B
Member
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
There is no "official MAD position". The Holy Bible is the final authority just as it is with every other doctrine "we" believe and teach.
Sheila B
Member
Oh. So that's a No. Therefore there may be a non-Jew who is an apostle. Then I shall keep looking!
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Perhaps Silas.
Sheila B
Member
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” Romans 14:6
“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.” 1 Cor. 4:9
“Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” 1 Cor. 9:5
“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles(not the 12-my note) and prophets by the Spirit;” Eph. 3:5
“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” Eph. 4:11
“Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ(not the 12-my note).” 1 Thes. 2:6
Who wrote Acts? Luke?
“And it came to pass in Iconium, that they(Paul and Barnabus-my note) went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles… Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,. “ Acts 14:1-4, 14
“Ad these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.” 1 Cor. 4:6-9
Apollos was an apostle.
The Lord Jesus Christ was "the Apostle":
"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;” Hebrews 3:1
“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.” 1 Cor. 4:9
“Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” 1 Cor. 9:5
“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles(not the 12-my note) and prophets by the Spirit;” Eph. 3:5
“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” Eph. 4:11
“Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ(not the 12-my note).” 1 Thes. 2:6
Who wrote Acts? Luke?
“And it came to pass in Iconium, that they(Paul and Barnabus-my note) went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles… Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,. “ Acts 14:1-4, 14
“Ad these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.” 1 Cor. 4:6-9
Apollos was an apostle.
The Lord Jesus Christ was "the Apostle":
"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;” Hebrews 3:1
Thanks for your patience with me. I know I'm slow to get back here sometimes. It's easy to post quickies elsewhere, but I don't want to be flippant and quick over here.
Jesus taught that one had to keep the commandments (and believe in Him) in order to have eternal life. This is clear in Luke 10:25-28; John 5:24; et al. Peter preached that anyone who worked righteousness would be accepted by God (Acts 10:35) and that one had to repent and be baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). He received this command from Jesus Himself. Jesus (in His earthly ministry) and the Twelve taught the same way to eternal life.
Yet Paul, having received a dispensation from the risen Lord to carry the gospel of the uncircumcision to the world, taught something different. Whereas works were undisputably a requirement under the teaching of the gospel of the kingdom and circumcision, Paul taught:
That's all I have time for now. Hopefully I can post again in the morning and work toward getting caught up with your questions/comments, Sheila.
Thanks!
Randy
When you say "has a different mode of salvation", are you referring to his salvation or to the salvation he preached? If the former, then I'll give my thoughts on that in an upcoming response to another of your posts. If the latter...
Jesus taught that one had to keep the commandments (and believe in Him) in order to have eternal life. This is clear in Luke 10:25-28; John 5:24; et al. Peter preached that anyone who worked righteousness would be accepted by God (Acts 10:35) and that one had to repent and be baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). He received this command from Jesus Himself. Jesus (in His earthly ministry) and the Twelve taught the same way to eternal life.
Yet Paul, having received a dispensation from the risen Lord to carry the gospel of the uncircumcision to the world, taught something different. Whereas works were undisputably a requirement under the teaching of the gospel of the kingdom and circumcision, Paul taught:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom. 4:5
You also referenced the Twelve being of the order of Melchisidek. Jesus was a High Priest of that order (as opposed to according to the Levitical order). Can you clarify what you mean by the apostles being of that order, too?To those people were written the circumcision epistles of Hebrews through Revelation. They remained in the calling in which they were called ("circumcision"), awaiting the promises according to the covenants. Those that would endure faithfully to death will be resurrected into the future kingdom where they will reign with Christ over the nations, as a kingdom of priests (see Rev. 20:4-6 cf. Dan. 12:1-3 et al).
That's all I have time for now. Hopefully I can post again in the morning and work toward getting caught up with your questions/comments, Sheila.
Thanks!
Randy
Sheila B
Member
Former. I need to get this down before I can progress to the salvation he preached. Thanks.
amosman
New member
Let me ask you this question? Was it possible for this man in Luke to keep the commandments perfectly? I think not. Only Jesus. I believe when Jesus told the man that he had to keep the commandments He knew the man was a Lawyer and was tempting Him. So Jesus gave the man a true answer but not a complete answer. Jesus knew the man had not kept the commandments but let the man deceive himself because of the spirit that Jesus perceived in him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
This verse has to do with believing in Him. I do believe that is the same for us today, right.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
It is in vain to seek for justification by the works of the law. All must plead guilty. Guilty before God, is a dreadful word; but no man can be justified by a law which condemns him for breaking it. The corruption in our nature, will for ever stop any justification by our own works. It has always been this way, even from the beginning.
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
What is righteousness but to do what is right, Including having faith in what Messiah did for us.