Faith

[Him]

In Romans 10:10 is the clause, "For with the heart man believeth unto (INTO in the Greek) righteousness" connected to verse s 6-8 where it states, Faith speaks on this wise, say not in our heart bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But says, The Word is in our heart and in our mouth. That is the word of faith in which we preach.
And is this the faith that establishes the Law (3:31) and the faith that the Just live by? (1:17)

 

[chrysostom]

Faith is a gift. If we don't have it, all we can do is ask for it.

 

[Clete]

In Romans 10:10 is the clause, "For with the heart man believeth unto (INTO in the Greek) righteousness" connected to verse s 6-8 where it states, Faith speaks on this wise, say not in our heart bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But says, The Word is in our heart and in our mouth. That is the word of faith in which we preach.
And is this the faith that establishes the Law (3:31) and the faith that the Just live by? (1:17)

Okay, first of all, the translation "UNTO" in Romans 10:10 is accurate. The Greek word "eis" does NOT necessarily mean "INTO," as your post implies. In fact, the KJV translates this word in a variety of ways depending on context.

Strong’s G1519 (EIS) is translated in the KJV as follows:

• INTO (573 times)
• TO (281 times)
• UNTO (207 times)
• FOR (140 times)
• IN (138 times)
• ON (58 times)
• TOWARD (29 times)
• AGAINST (26 times)
• MISCELLANEOUS (322 times)

That last category, "MISCELLANEOUS," refers to 322 cases where the Greek word "eis" isn’t translated into a specific English word. Its meaning is absorbed into the sentence structure due to idiomatic or grammatical differences between Greek and English.

As for "INTO," I’ve only found TWO English Bibles that translate "eis" that way in Romans 10:10. They are the LITV (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) and the MLV (Modern Literal Version). These are not real translations in the normal sense. They are hyper-literal tools made for direct Greek study, not for reading, teaching, or doctrinal instruction. They are not cited in mainstream commentaries, seminaries, or churches.

ALL other English translations, including the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, CSB, NET, and even paraphrases like the NLT, translate "eis" in Romans 10:10 as either "UNTO," "RESULTING IN," "LEADING TO," or they absorb its directional force into the verb itself ("IS JUSTIFIED" or "IS SAVED").

So yes, "eis" is correctly and precisely translated as "UNTO" in Romans 10:10.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

Further, and far more importantly...


ROMANS 10 DOES NOT TEACH LEGALISM!

The entire thrust of Paul's ministry, indeed the whole point of his apostleship, can be summarized in one simple exhortation...

DO NOT PLACE YOURSELF UNDER THE LAW.

Paul makes this point repeatedly and unambiguously:

Romans 4:5 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."​

​

Romans 6:14 “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”​

​

Romans 6:15 “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!”​

​

Romans 7:4 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.”​

​

Romans 7:6 “But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”​

​

Romans 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”​

​

Galatians 2:19 “For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.”​

​

Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”​

​

Galatians 3:10–13 “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse… Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.”​

​

Galatians 3:23–25 “But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law… Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ… But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”​

​

Galatians 4:4–5 “God sent forth His Son… to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”​

​

Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?”​

​

Galatians 5:2 "Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing."​

​

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”​

​

Philippians 3:9 “And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.”​

​

Colossians 2:14 “[Christ] having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”​

​

I Timothy 1:9 “Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate…”​

​

​

If I were to quote everything Paul says on this, I’d basically have to quote the entire book of Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, etc.

Paul’s message is consistent from beginning to end...

We are justified by faith, apart from the law.
We are not under the law.
We must not return to the law.

To do so is to hobble your Christian walk and live a life of unnecessary frustration, thinking you can live a life that is impossible to you.

"Things Which Gracious Souls Discover:​

"To ‘hope to be better’ [hence acceptable] is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.

"To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.

"To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.

"To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.

"The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion…

"To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure."

Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that "God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men, constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons" (J. W. Sanderson, Jr.).​

 

[Him]

Faith is a gift. If we don't have it, all we can do is ask for it.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Him]

Okay, first of all, the translation "UNTO" in Romans 10:10 is accurate. The Greek word "eis" does NOT necessarily mean "INTO," as your post implies. In fact, the KJV translates this word in a variety of ways depending on context.

Strong’s G1519 (EIS) is translated in the KJV as follows:

• INTO (573 times)
• TO (281 times)
• UNTO (207 times)
• FOR (140 times)
• IN (138 times)
• ON (58 times)
• TOWARD (29 times)
• AGAINST (26 times)
• MISCELLANEOUS (322 times)

How it translates and what it means is two different things. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And if we may, as the Greek reader would see, is what it would be.

As for "INTO," I’ve only found TWO English Bibles that translate "eis" that way in Romans 10:10. They are the LITV (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) and the MLV (Modern Literal Version). These are not real translations in the normal sense. They are hyper-literal tools made for direct Greek study, not for reading, teaching, or doctrinal instruction. They are not cited in mainstream commentaries, seminaries, or churches.

Not a real translations? That is rather subjective. Many get lost in their many words my friend. In respect to this quote of yours and my own subjectivity. I could care less how it is translated by others.

ALL other English translations, including the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, CSB, NET, and even paraphrases like the NLT, translate "eis" in Romans 10:10 as either "UNTO," "RESULTING IN," "LEADING TO," or they absorb its directional force into the verb itself ("IS JUSTIFIED" or "IS SAVED").

So yes, "eis" is correctly and precisely translated as "UNTO" in Romans 10:10.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Further, and far more importantly...


ROMANS 10 DOES NOT TEACH LEGALISM!

Rom 9:30 says, "What will we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is OUT OF faith" For the Just shall live out of faith. (1:17) And this faith establishes the Law (3:23) This Faith speaks on this wise. say not in our heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say the uttered Word, Christ is in our hearts and in our mouths. THAT IS the Word of Faith in which we are to preach. For God has said, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths. For with the NEW the heart of the word through Christ a man believeth unto, into, results in, leads to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (10:6-8,10)

As He said in Deut 29:1 These [are] the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab (before entering into the promised land), beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. For the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deut 30:6) So Hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. (Deut 30:10-14) This the faith in which we preach. For the life we now live in the flesh we live through the FAITH OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. Behold, a new creature. All is new and of God. Begotten by the Word of truth. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of this engrafted word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the engrafted word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. That new creation in Christ Jesus with the engrafted word, the word in His heart and mouth. The Law in His heart and mind. This is the Law that is of Liberty. (Jam 1:18-25) The Word manifested in the flesh, our flesh through Christ Jesus. For we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27) That He be the first among many brethren. (Rom 8:29) For Christ is the end of the written Law on paper and stone for righteousness for all that believe. Declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but fleshly tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God (2 Cor 3:3-5) For it is in Him we Live, move and have our being. It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2Cor 5:17-21)

 

[Clete]

How it translates and what it means is two different things.

Nope!

Words mean things! Concepts are given names. Those names are what words are.

"unto" names one concept, "into" names another concept. The two are not synonyms and there is no way that the context of Romans 10:5 supports "into" as a proper English translation. It is "unto" - period.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And if we may, as the Greek reader would see, is what it would be.

This sentence makes no sense.

Did you mean to say that the Greek reader would see "into" rather than "unto"?

If so, my response would be, "Saying it doesn't make it so."

There seems to be no evidence that your desired translation is superior in anyway to the way that practically every bible in existence renders the passage.

Not a real translations? That is rather subjective.

It isn't subjective at all. The producers of those "translations" were making no attempt to translate into English in the way English is normally read or spoken or even understood. They are not translations in the normal sense of the word.

Many get lost in their many words my friend.

Meaning you didn't read what I wrote or that you don't care to address it.

In respect to this quote of yours and my own subjectivity. I could care less how it is translated by others.

That's a BIG problem!

That isn't just a big problem, that is a catastrophic attitude that can only end in disaster, both doctrinally and spiritually.

Your rendering of Romans 10:5 is false - period. NO ONE but you cares at all about YOUR translation of it.
Big claims demand big evidence. You say that dozens of English translations and the hundreds of Greek scholars involved in producing those translations are wrong and that you are right. Well, prove it. You showing up to make the claim does nothing whatsoever to establish it as valid.

Rom 9:30 says, "What will we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is OUT OF faith" For the Just shall live out of faith. (1:17) And this faith establishes the Law (3:23) This Faith speaks on this wise. say not in our heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say the uttered Word, Christ is in our hearts and in our mouths. THAT IS the Word of Faith in which we are to preach. For God has said, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths. For with the NEW the heart of the word through Christ a man believeth unto, into, results in, leads to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (10:6-8,10)

As He said in Deut 29:1 These [are] the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab (before entering into the promised land), beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. For the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deut 30:6) So Hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. (Deut 30:10-14) This the faith in which we preach. For the life we now live in the flesh we live through the FAITH OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. Behold, a new creature. All is new and of God. Begotten by the Word of truth. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of this engrafted word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the engrafted word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. That new creation in Christ Jesus with the engrafted word, the word in His heart and mouth. The Law in His heart and mind. This is the Law that is of Liberty. (Jam 1:18-25) The Word manifested in the flesh, our flesh through Christ Jesus. For we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27) That He be the first among many brethren. (Rom 8:29) For Christ is the end of the written Law on paper and stone for righteousness for all that believe. Declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but fleshly tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God (2 Cor 3:3-5) For it is in Him we Live, move and have our being. It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2Cor 5:17-21)

Okay, so we're confronted here with a wall of Scripture snippets strung together without a clear argument. I think I get the gist of it...

You're flipping Paul’s entire point in Romans 10 on its head. He cites Deuteronomy not to reintroduce law-keeping, but to show that righteousness is by faith, not by the works of the law. The word is near, not so you can do it to be justified, but so you can believe it. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. You’re conflating justification and sanctification, fruit and root, cause and effect. Yes, the law is written on the heart of the believer, but that is the result of salvation, not the means of attaining it or keeping it. Romans 10 is not about doing the law by faith; it’s about being made righteous by faith apart from the law. You’re dressing legalism in spiritual language and calling it grace. It’s not.

If this doctrine were correct, there'd have been no need for the Apostle Paul to begin with. Jesus had twelve apostles already that He personally trained and sent out into "all the nations,...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you". If Paul was just out teaching law-keeping for salvation, Peter, James and John wouldn't have needed Paul's help. Paul was raised up to reveal something different, not a reiteration of law through faith, but a gospel of righteousness apart from the law, through faith in Christ alone.

“Yet the law is not of faith” - Galatians 3:12

 

[Him]

Okay, so we're confronted here with a wall of Scripture snippets strung together without a clear argument

Without a Clear argument? We paint the way we are called. If one can't see due to preconceived notions and ideas no amount of commentary will "typically" forego that.

Regardless, You said in respect to the clause "believeth into righteousness" in Rom 10:10 the following,
"ALL other English translations, including the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, CSB, NET, and even paraphrases like the NLT, translate "eis" in Romans 10:10 as either "UNTO," "RESULTING IN," "LEADING TO," or they absorb its directional force into the verb itself ("IS JUSTIFIED" or "IS SAVED").

So yes, "eis" is correctly and precisely translated as "UNTO" in Romans 10:10.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Further, and far more importantly...


ROMANS 10 DOES NOT TEACH LEGALISM!"

In direct response to that this was posted.
"Rom 9:30 says, "What will we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is OUT OF faith" For the Just shall live out of faith. (1:17) And this faith establishes the Law (3:23) This Faith speaks on this wise. say not in our heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say the uttered Word, Christ is in our hearts and in our mouths. THAT IS the Word of Faith in which we are to preach. For God has said, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths. For with the NEW the heart of the word through Christ a man believeth unto, into, results in, leads to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (10:6-8,10)"

In short the above shows that our faith comes from the changed heart in and through Christ. For God has said He will put His Law in our hearts and minds in Jeremiah 31:31 and Heb 8:10. Which is basically the same as saying that we have the Word in our hearts and mouths as shared in Romans 10:6-8 and Deuteronomy 30:10-14. However, when we say the word is in our hearts it says more than saying the Law. In Ezekial and Corinthians God says that we are given a new Spirit, His. This takes it to even a higher level of understanding than saying the Word or the Law being in our hearts. But Romans 10:6-8 has that covered when it says, Faith doesn't say bring Christ down from above or up from the deep but says, the spoken Word is in our hearts and mouths. The clause the word is in our hearts and mouths is saying Christ is. Which is same as saying God's Spirit.

Deut. 30:10-14 shows that when the word is placed in our hearts it is of the Book of the Law and the statutes contained therein and the fact that we are to keep them and can because they being put in our heart is a new covenant from God as Deut 29:1 shares. Which is saying the same as Jeremiah 31:31 but so much more. Because when most professing Christians here about the Law being in our hearts, they kind of confine them to the 10 commandments. Take note as you digest that, that Deut 30:10 does not mention the judgments.

In closing as Rom 10:8 says the word, the Law, through Christ, and His Spirit is in our hearts that we do that which is there; this is the word of Faith in which we preach.

More later.

 

[Clete]

Without a Clear argument?

I was being kind. There was effectively no argument made at all.

We paint the way we are called.

I see. So scripture walls are going to be a regular feature with you.
Okay. That's fine. It's hard to follow but I've seen worse.

If one can't see due to preconceived notions and ideas no amount of commentary will "typically" forego that.

So, your solution is to not make an argument? I don't get it.

My "preconceived idea" is that scripture means what it says and that almost everyone uses whatever techniques they can find to make it say what they want it to say so that they don't have to change their minds about anything - ever.

For example. If someone were to start with the preconceived notion that “faith establishes the law” means “faith is law-keeping,” then they'll read that assumption back into every verse and they will not be moved one single inch off that stance by anyone, no matter what they say or how they say it.

Regardless, You said in respect to the clause "believeth into righteousness" in Rom 10:10 the following,

That clause does not exist in Rom. 10:10.

"ALL other English translations, including the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, CSB, NET, and even paraphrases like the NLT, translate "eis" in Romans 10:10 as either "UNTO," "RESULTING IN," "LEADING TO," or they absorb its directional force into the verb itself ("IS JUSTIFIED" or "IS SAVED").

So yes, "eis" is correctly and precisely translated as "UNTO" in Romans 10:10.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Further, and far more importantly...


ROMANS 10 DOES NOT TEACH LEGALISM!"

In direct response to that this was posted.

Please use the quote feature that's built into the site. It's super easy to use and makes things so much easier for everyone, not only to read your post but to respond to it.

"Rom 9:30 says, "What will we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is OUT OF faith" For the Just shall live out of faith. (1:17) And this faith establishes the Law (3:23) This Faith speaks on this wise. say not in our heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say the uttered Word, Christ is in our hearts and in our mouths. THAT IS the Word of Faith in which we are to preach. For God has said, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths. For with the NEW the heart of the word through Christ a man believeth unto, into, results in, leads to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (10:6-8,10)"

In short the above shows that our faith comes from the changed heart in and through Christ. For God has said He will put His Law in our hearts and minds in Jeremiah 31:31 and Heb 8:10. Which is basically the same as saying that we have the Word in our hearts and mouths as shared in Romans 10:6-8 and Deuteronomy 30:10-14. However, when we say the word is in our hearts it says more than saying the Law. In Ezekial and Corinthians God says that we are given a new Spirit, His. This takes it to even a higher level of understanding than saying the Word or the Law being in our hearts. But Romans 10:6-8 has that covered when it says, Faith doesn't say bring Christ down from above or up from the deep but says, the spoken Word is in our hearts and mouths. The clause the word is in our hearts and mouths is saying Christ is. Which is same as saying God's Spirit.

Deut. 30:10-14 shows that when the word is placed in our hearts it is of the Book of the Law and the statutes contained therein and the fact that we are to keep them and can because they being put in our heart is a new covenant from God as Deut 29:1 shares. Which is saying the same as Jeremiah 31:31 but so much more. Because when most professing Christians here about the Law being in our hearts, they kind of confine them to the 10 commandments. Take note as you digest that, that Deut 30:10 does not mention the judgments.

In closing as Rom 10:8 says the word, the Law, through Christ, and His Spirit is in our hearts that we do that which is there; this is the word of Faith in which we preach.

More later.

Okay, so all of this is just a rehash of the same proof-texting / reading of your doctrine into the text that I've already refuted. I'm done with this rinse and repeat cycle unless and until you respond to the arguments I've made. I don't expect responses to every single point I ever make but being effectively ignored is getting boring. I need a direct response to at least the following two major points...

1. You ARE conflating justification with sanctification and in so doing using Paul's words to "prove" the very thing Paul is arguing against.

2. If what you are suggesting was accurate, Paul's ministry wouldn't have ever existed at all. There would have been no need for God to go searching for a man to miraculously convert to His service for such a task. He already had twelve, well trained, willing and Holy Spirit filled apostles and who knows how many other followers, not the least of which was James the Lord's own brother, who could and would have filled that role.

Substantive discussions are two way streets. If what you want is to use TOL as a blog then that's fine, but don't expect the same level of engagement that you'd get if you actually participated in legit two way conversations.

 

[Him]

I don't know what is worse. You not actually addressing anything in the post you responded to above and thinking or just saying you have. Or your 2 cheerleaders egging you on by their positive affirmations.

Because if you or they think
the following was productive or that the following proved anything you are mistaken. It is just an opinion that did not need to be said.

I was being kind. There was effectively no argument made at all.

As was this.

I see. So scripture walls are going to be a regular feature with you.
Okay. That's fine. It's hard to follow but I've seen worse.


So, your solution is to not make an argument? I don't get it.

My "preconceived idea" is that scripture means what it says and that almost everyone uses whatever techniques they can find to make it say what they want it to say so that they don't have to change their minds about anything - ever.

Now after that, you kinda say something but not really. In reality is just another unproductive opinion that did not need to be said.

For example. If someone were to start with the preconceived notion that “faith establishes the law” means “faith is law-keeping,” then they'll read that assumption back into every verse and they will not be moved one single inch off that stance by anyone, no matter what they say or how they say it.

Faith establishes that which is established, for we have been reconciled. Made righteous, made just inside and out. And it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure

His law is in our hearts and minds as God had covenanted.

Yes or no?

If your answer is no because you "think" maybe it is a future or an ongoing process. Then think again.

Because as you were shown, God had covenanted this very covenant to Israel prior to them entering into the promised land in the present tense. It is just phrased differently. This is seen in Deut 29:1 where God had said He covenanted a new covenant, not like the one in Horeb. And this covenant is revealed in Deut 30:6,10-14 where it is disclosed that our Lord our God will circumcise out hearts that we Love Him. The circumcision made without hands, in the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh. A new creature, behold all is new and of God. For His Word is in our hearts and in our mouths that we want to do it.

For through Christ, the Word is in our hearts and in our mouths. That is the faith in which we preach. That believes into, unto, results in, leads to righteousness. Rom 10:6-8

The fact that Deut 30 is paraphrased in Romans 10 shows us the word mentioned in Romans 10 is the same as the word mentioned in Deut 30. And that is what we protect, we keep that which we are. In is image and likeness we are remade.
Reconciled, Behold as David said of himself and Christ, I come in the Volume of the Book that is written of me, to do thy will oh God. Heb 10:7 The word is the Book of the Law. And His law is in our hearts.

Now we do because we want to, not because we have to. That is the faith in which we preach. That establishes the established.

He has perfected forever us whom He has sanctified. Whereof, this being perfected, the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us . For He put His law in our hearts and in our minds.

Now we have boldness, entering into the Holiest of all in the presence of God through the veil, that is to say His flesh. Therefore let's exhort one another daily as we are called today. For if we are sinning, missing the mark willfully, going against who we are now in Christ Jesus. There remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only judgement and the fiery indignation of the Lord.

Now it isn't because we have to, it is because we want to because of who we are in Christ Jesus

That clause does not exist in Rom. 10:10.

That is a lie and We both know it is.

Rom 10:10 καρδίᾳ With 'The' Heart γὰρ For πιστεύεται Believes εἰς (into, unto, to, towards, for, among For) δικαιοσύνην Righteousness; στόματι And With 'The' δὲ Mouth ὁμολογεῖται Is Confession εἰς To σωτηρίαν Salvation.

The heart with the word in it believes into, unto, towards, for righteousness.

Please use the quote feature that's built into the site. It's super easy to use and makes things so much easier for everyone, not only to read your post but to respond to it.

And here again was something else you did not need to say. I usually don't respond to these things because they have nothing to do with the topic. They are just red herrings used to fill in and distract.

I shared originally

"Rom 9:30 says, "What will we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is OUT OF faith" For the Just shall live out of faith. (1:17) And this faith establishes the Law (3:23) This Faith speaks on this wise. say not in our heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say the uttered Word, Christ is in our hearts and in our mouths. THAT IS the Word of Faith in which we are to preach. For God has said, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths. For with the NEW the heart of the word through Christ a man believeth unto, into, results in, leads to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (10:6-8,10)"

And because you said you didn't agree and that you did not understand it I shared the following explanation

In short the above shows that our faith comes from the changed heart in and through Christ. For God has said He will put His Law in our hearts and minds in Jeremiah 31:31 and Heb 8:10. Which is basically the same as saying that we have the Word in our hearts and mouths as shared in Romans 10:6-8 and Deuteronomy 30:10-14. However, when we say the word is in our hearts it says more than saying the Law. In Ezekial and Corinthians God says that we are given a new Spirit, His. This takes it to even a higher level of understanding than saying the Word or the Law being in our hearts. But Romans 10:6-8 has that covered when it says, Faith doesn't say bring Christ down from above or up from the deep but says, the spoken Word is in our hearts and mouths. The clause the word is in our hearts and mouths is saying Christ is. Which is same as saying God's Spirit.

Deut. 30:10-14 shows that when the word is placed in our hearts it is of the Book of the Law and the statutes contained therein and the fact that we are to keep them and can because they being put in our heart is a new covenant from God as Deut 29:1 shares. Which is saying the same as Jeremiah 31:31 but so much more. Because when most professing Christians here about the Law being in our hearts, they kind of confine them to the 10 commandments. Take note as you digest that, that Deut 30:10 does not mention the judgments.

In closing as Rom 10:8 says the word, the Law, through Christ, and His Spirit is in our hearts that we do that which is there; this is the word of Faith in which we preach.

Then rather than actually responding to it with anything that proves anything you shared the following without actually addressing anything shown to you.
As if...

Okay, so all of this is just a rehash of the same proof-texting / reading of your doctrine into the text that I've already refuted. I'm done with this rinse and repeat cycle unless and until you respond to the arguments I've made. I don't expect responses to every single point I ever make but being effectively ignored is getting boring. I need a direct response to at least the following two major points...

1. You ARE conflating justification with sanctification and in so doing using Paul's words to "prove" the very thing Paul is arguing against.

2. If what you are suggesting was accurate, Paul's ministry wouldn't have ever existed at all. There would have been no need for God to go searching for a man to miraculously convert to His service for such a task. He already had twelve, well trained, willing and Holy Spirit filled apostles and who knows how many other followers, not the least of which was James the Lord's own brother, who could and would have filled that role.

And in closing you respond with this. Which is just another thing that did not need to be said, filler so to speak.

Substantive discussions are two way streets. If what you want is to use TOL as a blog then that's fine, but don't expect the same level of engagement that you'd get if you actually participated in legit two way conversations.

Take care

 

[Clete]

I don't know what is worse. You not actually addressing anything in the post you responded to above and thinking or just saying you have. Or your 2 cheerleaders egging you on by their positive affirmations.

You're going to get laughed out of the room if you start accusing me of being unresponsive. I respond until I'm practically blue in the face when the people I'm interacting with are actually responsive themselves. What I’m not interested in is repeating myself endlessly while someone pretends to "respond" by ignoring every point I've made and simply reasserting their position as if that counts as a rebuttal.

Because if you or they think
the following was productive or that the following proved anything you are mistaken. It is just an opinion that did not need to be said.

It proved you were being hypocritical, accusing me of what you yourself were doing.

It's no surprise that you didn't like it. That doesn't make the point invalid. It was valid.

As was this.


Now after that, you kinda say something but not really. In reality is just another unproductive opinion that did not need to be said.

It wasn't an opinion. It was flat statement of fact. I've been doing this sort of thing for a very very long time and I can tell already that you are the sort who is capable of substantive discussion and debate but you won't do it without being practically begged to do so. You really do believe that your presentations of your doctrine work as rebuttals to arguments against that doctrine. You actually think that if you just repeat your position, that all the things shown to be problems for that position sort of melt into non-existence. I haven't any idea what brings a man's mind to such a state but your behavior to this point demonstrates that this is your normal mode. And that's your prerogative! You just have to understand that it isn't a sign that I'm some sort of jerk because I call you out on it and don't feed into the pathology (for want of a better term) by treating it as valid.

If you want to interact with me then you'll have to actually address the things I say with something more substantive than a simple repetition of your position. If you do that, I'll respond directly and with substance and respect until we're both blue in the face. If you don't, I won't. Pretty simple.

Faith establishes that which is established, for we have been reconciled. Made righteous, made just inside and out. And it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure

His law is in our hearts and minds as God had covenanted.

Yes or no?

If your answer is no because you "think" maybe it is a future or an ongoing process. Then think again.

Because as you were shown, God had covenanted this very covenant to Israel prior to them entering into the promised land in the present tense. It is just phrased differently. This is seen in Deut 29:1 where God had said He covenanted a new covenant, not like the one in Horeb. And this covenant is revealed in Deut 30:6,10-14 where it is disclosed that our Lord our God will circumcise out hearts that we Love Him. The circumcision made without hands, in the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh. A new creature, behold all is new and of God. For His Word is in our hearts and in our mouths that we want to do it.

For through Christ, the Word is in our hearts and in our mouths. That is the faith in which we preach. That believes into, unto, results in, leads to righteousness. Rom 10:6-8

The fact that Deut 30 is paraphrased in Romans 10 shows us the word mentioned in Romans 10 is the same as the word mentioned in Deut 30. And that is what we protect, we keep that which we are. In is image and likeness we are remade.
Reconciled, Behold as David said of himself and Christ, I come in the Volume of the Book that is written of me, to do thy will oh God. Heb 10:7 The word is the Book of the Law. And His law is in our hearts.

Now we do because we want to, not because we have to. That is the faith in which we preach. That establishes the established.

He has perfected forever us whom He has sanctified. Whereof, this being perfected, the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us . For He put His law in our hearts and in our minds.

Now we have boldness, entering into the Holiest of all in the presence of God through the veil, that is to say His flesh. Therefore let's exhort one another daily as we are called today. For if we are sinning, missing the mark willfully, going against who we are now in Christ Jesus. There remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only judgement and the fiery indignation of the Lord.

Now it isn't because we have to, it is because we want to because of who we are in Christ Jesus

This is just you repeating the same stuff that I've already refuted. I'm going to briefly respond to this one last time....

You're preaching sanctification as if it were justification. That confuses result with cause. Yes, God writes His law on the hearts of believers, but Romans 10 isn't saying that this inward transformation is what makes us righteous. It says we believe unto righteousness, not do unto righteousness. You're importing post-salvation realities back into the means of salvation itself, and in doing so, you're reinforcing the very legalism Paul dismantles throughout the whole of his ministry!

That is a lie and We both know it is.

That sentence was the lie!

I proved that it doesn't exist. You showing up to claim otherwise, not withstanding. You repeating that claim does NOTHING to refute the arguments made that prove otherwise.

Rom 10:10 καρδίᾳ With 'The' Heart γὰρ For πιστεύεται Believes εἰς (into, unto, to, towards, for, among For) δικαιοσύνην Righteousness; στόματι And With 'The' δὲ Mouth ὁμολογεῖται Is Confession εἰς To σωτηρίαν Salvation.

The heart with the word in it believes into, unto, towards, for righteousness.

The words "into", "unto" are not synonyms. "Into" is not a correct translation in this context, which I established without substantive response from you in a previous post and am not interested in repeating here.

And here again was something else you did not need to say. I usually don't respond to these things because they have nothing to do with the topic. They are just red herrings used to fill in and distract.

I shared originally


And because you said you didn't agree and that you did not understand it I shared the following explanation



Then rather than actually responding to it with anything that proves anything you shared the following without actually addressing anything shown to you.
As if...


And in closing you respond with this. Which is just another thing that did not need to be said, filler so to speak.



Take care

I now wish I hadn't bothered with what I wrote above.

You're new and so I won't just delete it but this is the last time I'll respond to anything you ever say unless and until you respond to what I've already said in response to your doctrine. This is a debate forum. I'm here to debate, not read your personal blog posts.

 

[Him]

You're new and so I won't just delete it but this is the last time I'll respond to anything you ever say unless and until you respond to what I've already said in response to your doctrine. This is a debate forum. I'm here to debate, not read your personal blog posts.

You did it again. You Posted nothing.

And as a closing statement. Do as you will.

 

[Ps82]

My version:
Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH, the LIFE.

• Acknowledge him as your hero for how he suffered and died to bring us eternal life.
• Repent and recognize him as your LORD.
• Put your trust in him as a promise keeper and be like King David, who sinned, and yet was a man who sought after God's own heart.

Try to honor him with obedience as best you can with his help ... for he has rewards to share in his kingdom according to the life you live here on Earth.

 

[chrysostom]

with his help

Ask for it.

 

[Clete]

You did it again. You Posted nothing.

And as a closing statement. Do as you will.

You're are a dishonest waste of my time. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Clete]

My version:
Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH, the LIFE.

• Acknowledge him as your hero for how he suffered and died to bring us eternal life.
• Repent and recognize him as your LORD.
• Put your trust in him as a promise keeper and be like King David, who sinned, and yet was a man who sought after God's own heart.

Try to honor him with obedience as best you can with his help ... for he has rewards to share in his kingdom according to the life you live here on Earth.

To try and be better is to trust in the flesh and to disbelieve that you're righteousness is in Christ and in Him only. Every attempt you make to be righteous is a tacit admission that you aren't already so, by imputation. We are saved UNTO good works not BY good works. Works are a result not a prerequisite. This is the gospel according to Paul which was given to him, not by man, but by direct divine revelation from the risen and glorified Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

The above is the entire book of Galatians in a nutshell. If what you people are teaching is correct, Paul's gospel is false, his ministry would have never existed and we'd all be Messianic Jews.

 

[Him]

To try and be better is to trust in the flesh and to disbelieve that you're righteousness is in Christ and in Him only. Every attempt you make to be righteous is a tacit admission that you aren't already so, by imputation. We are saved UNTO good works not BY good works. Works are a result not a prerequisite. This is the gospel according to Paul which was given to him, not by man, but by direct divine revelation from the risen and glorified Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

You misunderstand Paul in Galatians. We are not a factor. We are all one in Christ. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave himself for us. In this life there is no law or need. We do as His faith accords.
For the law is in our minds as God proclaimed . His law is in our hearts, this is the faith in which Paul preached through the spirit. We being the new creation in Christ changes what we do or want to do? We are begotten by the word of truth.

Having the engrafted word. Be not a hearer only deceiving ourselves. For if we are a hearer only and not a doer of the work, we are like a man who beholds himself in a mirror. Seeing the new creation in Christ, The one begotten by the word of truth with engrafted word and forgets what manner of man they are, a first fruit of His kind. But if when we look at our reflection, that perfect law, the word engrafted in us and not be a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work. We are blessed indeed