Ex Post Facto Factoring

[WeberHome]

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● Gen 26:5 . . Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My instructions.

● Deut 29:13-14 . . Not only with you am I making this covenant and this oath, .but with those standing here with us today before the Lord, our God, and [also] with those who are not here with us, this day.

It's sincerely believed by some that the two statements above serve to include Abraham in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. But the statement below seems to exclude him.

● Deut 5:2-3 . .The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our forefathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, we, all of whom are here alive today.

I'm pretty sure that Abraham was excluded from the covenant. The reason I feel that way is because God promised to curse whosoever curses Abraham.

● Gen 12:3 . . I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse,

The problem is: Abraham was married to his half sister (Gen 20:12)

The covenant prohibits marrying, and/or sleeping with, one's half sister. (Lev 18:9, Lev 20:17).

Under the terms and conditions of the covenant; men who sleep with their sisters are cursed the moment they do so because "cursed be he" is grammatically present tense; no delay and no waiting period; viz: the curse is immediate.

● Deut 27:22 . . Cursed be he who lies with his sister, his father's daughter or his mother's daughter.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who does not uphold the words of this Torah, to fulfill them.

Well; it seems to me that were God to slam Abraham with a curse for sleeping with his sister, then God would be obligated to slam Himself with a curse in return as per Gen 12:3.

● Gal 3:17 . .The Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God.

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[Danoh]

There are two issues here...

One - Deuteronomy represents what covenant made under Moses that Abraham was not under?

Two - What promises does it relate that were not fulfilled later, in Joshua's day and given what conditions?

For what is the Pentatuech really a witness of?

Solve for those and much begins to settle in your mind.

 

[genuineoriginal]

There were two Old Covenants:

Deuteronomy 29:1 1 These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.​

The Law was not part of the first Old Covenant, it was part of the second Old Covenant.

Deuteronomy 31:26 26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

The first Old Covenant consisted of nothing more than the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34:28 28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.​

Abraham was not under either of these two Old Covenants.

 

[WeberHome]

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It's not difficult to appreciate Abraham's advantage. He had a certain kind of immunity. In other words, seeing as how Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were all instituted after Abraham's death; then none of the curses listed at Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69 applied to him.

Putting that in perspective: Just imagine yourself at liberty to break all ten of the statutes listed in the Decalogue as much as you wanted and as often as you wanted; and not have to worry about getting cursed for it. I think most Catholics would really like that seeing as how Rome's plan of salvation incorporates compliance with the Decalogue.

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[genuineoriginal]

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It's not difficult to appreciate Abraham's advantage. He had a certain kind of immunity. In other words, seeing as how Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were all instituted after Abraham's death; then none of the curses listed at Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69 applied to him.

If you haven't been circumcised through conversion to put yourself under the Law, then none of those curses apply to you either.

 

[PureX]

Ex Post Facto Factoring ...

I could have sworn I saw the word "fart" in there, somewhere.

 

[Wick Stick]

I don't know of anyone who tries to shoehorn Abraham into the Mosaic covenant.

Is this one of those "water is wet" arguments?

 

[WeberHome]

If you haven't been circumcised through conversion to put yourself under the Law, then none of those curses apply to you either.

● Gal 3:13-14 . . Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It's always been a bit of a mystery to me to whom the pronouns "us" and "we" refer-- to Paul and his fellow Jews, or to everybody?

I strongly suspect that it isn't necessary to be covenanted with God to be subject to the Law's curse. All that's necessary is to be knowledgeable. In other words; once someone has been indoctrinated with the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, they become responsible; viz: at that point they're as much as "under the law" and become subject to the consequences for breaking it.

● Rom 3:19-20 . . Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For example: The law prohibits lies (Lev 19:11). Once somebody becomes aware that God prohibits lies, then when they lie, they accrue God's curse upon liars.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.

Curses upon liars are very serious.

● Rev 21:8 . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

● Rev 22:14-15 . . Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside is everyone who loves and practices lying.

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[God's Truth]

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● Gen 26:5 . . Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My instructions.

● Deut 29:13-14 . . Not only with you am I making this covenant and this oath, .but with those standing here with us today before the Lord, our God, and [also] with those who are not here with us, this day.

It's sincerely believed by some that the two statements above serve to include Abraham in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. But the statement below seems to exclude him.

● Deut 5:2-3 . .The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our forefathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, we, all of whom are here alive today.

I'm pretty sure that Abraham was excluded from the covenant. The reason I feel that way is because God promised to curse whosoever curses Abraham.

● Gen 12:3 . . I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse,

The problem is: Abraham was married to his half sister (Gen 20:12)

The covenant prohibits marrying, and/or sleeping with, one's half sister. (Lev 18:9, Lev 20:17).

Under the terms and conditions of the covenant; men who sleep with their sisters are cursed the moment they do so because "cursed be he" is grammatically present tense; no delay and no waiting period; viz: the curse is immediate.

● Deut 27:22 . . Cursed be he who lies with his sister, his father's daughter or his mother's daughter.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who does not uphold the words of this Torah, to fulfill them.

Well; it seems to me that were God to slam Abraham with a curse for sleeping with his sister, then God would be obligated to slam Himself with a curse in return as per Gen 12:3.

● Gal 3:17 . .The Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God.

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The law as given from God to Moses about not marrying your half sister WAS NOT given in the time of Abraham.

You cannot break a law that was not yet given.

 

[God's Truth]

If you haven't been circumcised through conversion to put yourself under the Law, then none of those curses apply to you either.

Abraham was circumcised.

 

[God's Truth]

● Gal 3:13-14 . . Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It's always been a bit of a mystery to me to whom the pronouns "us" and "we" refer-- to Paul and his fellow Jews, or to everybody?

I strongly suspect that it isn't necessary to be covenanted with God to be subject to the Law's curse. All that's necessary is to be knowledgeable. In other words; once someone has been indoctrinated with the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, they become responsible; viz: at that point they're as much as "under the law" and become subject to the consequences for breaking it.

● Rom 3:19-20 . . Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For example: The law prohibits lies (Lev 19:11). Once somebody becomes aware that God prohibits lies, then when they lie, they accrue God's curse upon liars.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.

Curses upon liars are very serious.

● Rev 21:8 . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

● Rev 22:14-15 . . Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside is everyone who loves and practices lying.

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The mystery has been revealed.



Ephesians 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,

Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Ephesians 3:3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Ephesians 3:9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

 

[WeberHome]

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● Gal 3:17 . .The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

The "promise" in question reads like this:

"I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will aggrandize your name, and [you shall] be a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you." (Gen 12:2-3)

Additionally:

"And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a god." (Gen 17:8)

The essential thing to note about the promise is that it's unconditional. In other words: its fulfillment did not depend upon Abraham's compliance with the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. And best of all, the fulfilment of the promise does not depend upon Abraham's posterity complying with the covenant.

Bottom line: The fulfillment of the promise depends entirely upon God's integrity instead of upon human piety.

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[God's Truth]

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● Gal 3:17 . .The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

The "promise" in question reads like this:

"I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will aggrandize your name, and [you shall] be a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you." (Gen 12:2-3)

Additionally:

"And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a god." (Gen 17:8)

The essential thing to note about the promise is that it's unconditional. In other words: its fulfillment did not depend upon Abraham's compliance with the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. And best of all, the fulfilment of the promise does not depend upon Abraham's posterity complying with the covenant.

Bottom line: The fulfillment of the promise depends entirely upon God's integrity instead of upon human piety.

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Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, becauseAbraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

 

[WeberHome]

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.

It's sincerely believed by some that the statement above serves to include Abraham in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. But the statement below clearly excludes him.

● Deut 5:2-3 . .The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our forefathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, we, all of whom are here alive today.

Gen 26:4-5 reveals that the promises God made to Abraham as per Gen 12:2-3 and Gen 17:8 were not sustained by Abraham's piety; rather, Abraham's piety up to that point deserved them. In other words: once God made those promises, neither Abraham nor his posterity can never lose them because they are unconditional

● Gal 3:18 . . For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

That should be really good news to Abraham's posterity because it means that no matter how many times, nor now often, the Jews lose control of that land due to their non compliance with the covenant; they will never lose their entitlement to it.

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[genuineoriginal]

I strongly suspect that it isn't necessary to be covenanted with God to be subject to the Law's curse. All that's necessary is to be knowledgeable. In other words; once someone has been indoctrinated with the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, they become responsible; viz: at that point they're as much as "under the law" and become subject to the consequences for breaking it.

2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

I believe we can study scripture (the Old Testament in this verse) and use it for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness without putting ourselves "under the law".

 

[WeberHome]

I believe we can study scripture (the Old Testament in this verse) and use it for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness without putting ourselves "under the law"

That depends upon the identity of the "we" about whom you speak.

Christ's believing followers are in no danger of the Old Testament's consequences.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.

● Gal 3:13 . . Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,

Now as for everybody else, they would actually be much better off if they kept their noses out of the Old Testament because it's one thing to sin inadvertently, but it is quite another to sin knowing in advance that what you are doing is prohibited.

● Num 15:30-31 . . But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly reviles The Lord; that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has spurned the word of The Lord and violated His commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his guilt.

● Heb 10:26-27 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

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[God's Truth]

It's sincerely believed by some that the statement above serves to include Abraham in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. But the statement below clearly excludes him.

● Deut 5:2-3 . .The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our forefathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, we, all of whom are here alive today.

Gen 26:4-5 reveals that the promises God made to Abraham as per Gen 12:2-3 and Gen 17:8 were not sustained by Abraham's piety; rather, Abraham's piety up to that point deserved them. In other words: once God made those promises, neither Abraham nor his posterity can never lose them because they are unconditional

● Gal 3:18 . . For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

That should be really good news to Abraham's posterity because it means that no matter how many times, nor now often, the Jews lose control of that land due to their non compliance with the covenant; they will never lose their entitlement to it.

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Earthly land is nothing. All the earthly promises have already been given.

The point about Abraham being saved before circumcision, yet having to be circumcised...that is about our having to obey God no matter what we are told to do.