Establishment of the Identity of Christ and The Destruction of the Temple

northwye

New member
Matthew 24: 1-7, The Establishment of the Identity of Christ and The Destruction of the Temple

Matthew 24: 1-7 says "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

Christ did not answer the first question of his disciples, which was when would the temple be destroyed. But much of Matthew 24 is an answer to their second question, what will be the signs of his second appearing and of the end of the world.

Daniel 9: 26 also predicts the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.. "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

The Messiah is said to be cut off, which refers to his death on the Cross.and the implication is that Christ's death on the Cross comes before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The people ol the prince that are said to come and destroy the city and the sanctuary are the Roman army under Titus.

Christ appeared, carried out his ministry, and was put to death on the Cross while the temple and the Old Covenant system was still in place in order to establish his identity as the Messiah in explicit or specific Old Testament prophecy, including Isaiah 53: 3-5. "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.",.

Isaiah 53: 3-5 was fulfilled in detail as well as other prophecies such as Micah 5: 2, "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

The Genealogy given in Matthew 1: 1-16 is important in establishing that Jesus Christ in the physical was a descendant from Abraham and David.

Luke .3: 23-38 also gives us the genealogy of Jesus Christ, back to Adam. The existence of the Old Covenant at the time of Christ's birth, ministry and death on the Cross helped to establish the identity of the Messiah.

Then, in 70 A.D. the Old Covenant system, which had been in existence from the beginning of the Messianic era at the death of Christ on the Cross to 70 A.D was given a deadly wound, when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

There may or may not have been genealogical records in the temple that were destroyed in 70 A.D.with the destruction of the temple.

The genealogy of Christ was not lost but is given in Matthew 24: 1-7 and in Luke 3: 23-38.

Genesis 49: 10 is fulfilled in the birth, ministry and death on the Cross of Christ. "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4. Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah." Psalm 89: 3-4

The "seed" of David in Psalm 89: 4 is his spiritual seed, as is the promise of the seed from Abraham also being his spiritual seed,.

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3: 6-7

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect" Galatians 3: 16-17

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 26-29

That which begins in the flesh becomes that which is spiritual in Christ with him in them in the Messianic era.

"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16

Isaiah 29: 16 points to the remaking of Old Covenant Israel in Jeremiah 18: 4-6, "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." I Peter 2: 5

As Old Covenant Israel, in the flesh, becomes a spiritual house in the new Covenant of Jesus Christ, so individuals with Christ in them change from being in mortal physical bodies to being in immortal spiritual bodies.

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." I Corinthians 15: 44

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." I Corinthians 15: 49-53.
 

Epoisses

New member
Daniel 9 is a prophecy for the reconstruction and restoration of Jerusalem and the temple in the last days not the days of Daniel. His book was sealed up until the time of the end which simply means that all his prophecies apply to the time of the end.
 

northwye

New member
"Daniel 9 is a prophecy for the reconstruction and restoration of Jerusalem and the temple in the last days not the days of Daniel. His book was sealed up until the time of the end which simply means that all his prophecies apply to the time of the end.":

This statement could be an attempt to create an argument over the meaning of Daniel 12:4 - which goes on and on - involving the dialectic game within dialogue. But is is best to avoid quarrels involving the dialectic game. There is nothing about Christian Zionism and its postulate that God will in the future return to a dispensation in which some or most parts of the Old Covenant will be restored in post number 1 above. Focusing on the idea that God will return to some kind of Old Covenant dispensation in the future brings one form of church theology into dominance over New Testament scripture cited in post number 1, that is, Paul's doctrine on faith.

On TOL that argument would be thought to be between dispensationalism or Christian Zionism and Reformed Theology and Covenant Theology. Again, what is said above does not get into either church theology.
 

Epoisses

New member
This statement could be an attempt to create an argument over the meaning of Daniel 12:4 - which goes on and on - involving the dialectic game within dialogue. But is is best to avoid quarrels involving the dialectic game. There is nothing about Christian Zionism and its postulate that God will in the future return to a dispensation in which some or most parts of the Old Covenant will be restored in post number 1 above. Focusing on the idea that God will return to some kind of Old Covenant dispensation in the future brings one form of church theology into dominance over New Testament scripture cited in post number 1, that is, Paul's doctrine on faith.

God is not the one who will return to the former dispensation, the antichrist is. The law of Moses will be the law of the whole world. Grace will be abolished and anyone who preaches the gospel will be put to death. All those mega-church pastors who preach grace today will disown it and bow at the feet of the antichrist. All churches will be closed down and only the synagogues that teach Torah will be allowed to operate. Think it sounds crazy?!? Wait till he gets here with his legions of fallen angels.
 

beameup

New member
God is not the one who will return to the former dispensation, the antichrist is. The law of Moses will be the law of the whole world. Grace will be abolished and anyone who preaches the gospel will be put to death. All those mega-church pastors who preach grace today will disown it and bow at the feet of the antichrist. All churches will be closed down and only the synagogues that teach Torah will be allowed to operate. Think it sounds crazy?!? Wait till he gets here with his legions of fallen angels.

No, I think it sounds unscriptural:
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:12
Sounds like a whole lot of sinning going on in the Tribulation.
 

Epoisses

New member
No, I think it sounds unscriptural:
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:12
Sounds like a whole lot of sinning going on in the Tribulation.

You just quoted the verse that defends everything I said. If the antichrist is sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple claiming to be God he is not going to be telling everyone to believe in Christ and the gospel! He will say believe in me and keep the Law. Law-keeping is Satanic and anyone who has ever gone down that path knows exactly what I'm talking about.
 

beameup

New member
You just quoted the verse that defends everything I said. If the antichrist is sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple claiming to be God he is not going to be telling everyone to believe in Christ and the gospel! He will say believe in me and keep the Law. Law-keeping is Satanic and anyone who has ever gone down that path knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Israel will already have a Temple and be 100% keeping the Law prior to the False-Messiah coming to power.
The one thing that Jews reject is that the Messiah will have supernatural powers and that he is somehow "divine".
When the False-Messiah is empowered by Satan, he will have supernatural powers AND he will proclaim himself DIVINE and demand WORSHIP.
This is anathema to Jews. This incident is known as the "Abomination which makes (the Temple) Desolate". It is akin to slaughtering a pig on the altar and putting up an image of Zeus (which happened under Antiochus Epiphanes).
 

Epoisses

New member
Israel will already have a Temple and be 100% keeping the Law prior to the False-Messiah coming to power.
The one thing that Jews reject is that the Messiah will have supernatural powers and that he is somehow "divine".
When the False-Messiah is empowered by Satan, he will have supernatural powers AND he will proclaim himself DIVINE and demand WORSHIP.
This is anathema to Jews. This incident is known as the "Abomination which makes (the Temple) Desolate". It is akin to slaughtering a pig on the altar and putting up an image of Zeus (which happened under Antiochus Epiphanes).

I'm a moderate or non-dispensational futurist. Please don't confuse my beliefs with the comic book dispy/rapture heresy you see on this forum.
 

beameup

New member
I'm a moderate or non-dispensational futurist. Please don't confuse my beliefs with the comic book dispy/rapture heresy you see on this forum.

Well it takes a "futuristic", almost sci-fi, mindset to see the possibilities for the future, when Satan and his horde of fallen angels are turned-loose to deceive all mankind. The world is just not prepared for an onslaught of supernatural beings appearing on earth. There certainly won't be anything "comic-book" about it.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Mat 24:24
 

northwye

New member
I wonder what it is about the scriptures quoted in post number 1 that are not liked by the recent posters, who have changed the topic of this thread.

This may be one clue about why the scriptures quoted in post number one are not liked: "If the antichrist is sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple claiming to be God he is not going to be telling everyone to believe in Christ and the gospel." II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is being interpreted literally and made to say that the man of sin is to sit in the literal temple of God. What church theology interprets scripture in a consistently literal way?

In post number 1 many scriptures from the Gospel of Christ are quoted. Is this what is not liked?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
No, I think it sounds unscriptural:
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:12
Sounds like a whole lot of sinning going on in the Tribulation.

I believe a large part of this "strong delusion" is Dispensationalism, that has been wrongly and widely adopted in recent history by religionists who oppose the Apostolic, NT, and orthodox Gospel message.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Matthew 24: 1-7, The Establishment of the Identity of Christ and The Destruction of the Temple

Matthew 24: 1-7 says "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

Christ did not answer the first question of his disciples, which was when would the temple be destroyed. But much of Matthew 24 is an answer to their second question, what will be the signs of his second appearing and of the end of the world.

"See ye not all these things?" is not what he says to his disciples. Why would he ask them if they see the stones and building works which they themselves were already pointing out to him and trying to show him? Especially when you take the Mark companion passage into the context? That is like you walking up to your teacher in class and showing him some colorful and bright stones you dug up somewhere; but he looks at you and asks you if you see the stones you are trying to show him. In other words it is a ridiculous rendering which makes the Master look foolish and it is because carnal minded translators cannot comprehend or fathom the possibility that the signs given in the Olivet Discourse are supernal and spiritual in meaning, (and they apply to each and every disciple for all time in every epoch and era from the moment the signs were given, no exceptions to the rule: Elohim is no respecter of the persons of men, and these things actually work toward our better in "the End").

Matthew 24:2 W/H
2 ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν αυτοις ου βλεπετε ταυτα παντα αμην λεγω υμιν ου μη αφεθη ωδε λιθος επι λιθον ος ου καταλυθησεται


The highlighted portion can be understood as a direct command to his disciples:

"ου βλεπετε ταυτα παντα" ~ "Take no heed to all these things", (Pay no attention).

If you see the above as a command then you may begin to see that the Master is setting the stage for the entire discourse and all the signs which he is about to give them. The command also tells you that he is not speaking about physical things like temple-buildings made with the hands of men, for he says, "Pay no attention to these things! In other words what he is about to say has nothing to do with the physical temple-building made with the hands of men.

Matthew 24-2
2 And Jesus said to them, Take no heed [Pay no attention] to all these things! Amen, I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.


In this manner of reading the text he still foretells the destruction of the physical temple; but that is clearly not the focus of what follows if one comprehends the above understanding. Moreover this is precisely the way in which the same word in the same form, (βλεπετε), is rendered by most translations only two verses later:

Matthew 24:4 W/H
4 και αποκριθεις ο ιησους ειπεν αυτοις βλεπετε μη τις υμας πλανηση

Matthew 24:4 ASV
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.


Moreover, as for the first question, he does indeed answer the "when" in the final punch-line conclusion of the passage, just as any good teacher would do at the close of a lengthy sermon. Problem is that most "prophecy buffs" do not have the patience to read that far and will not accept it even when it is shown to them because of a pre-existing terminal condition called paradigm-mindset-dogma.

Matthew 26:1-2 ASV
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these words, he said unto his disciples,
2 Ye know that after two days the passover cometh, and the Son of man is delivered up to be crucified.


Herein above is the "when", and it comes as the final punch-line statement at the full close of the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel of Matthew. And when the "powers of the heavens" were shaken, the four pillars of Exodus 26:31,32,33, the veil was rent in two in the midst: and the seven stars which were embroidered upon the veil fell to the earth, (for the veil represents the heavens and it had all things supernal in the heavens embroidered upon it with the exception of the twelve signs because they are living creatures). Isaiah 6:1-4 foreshadows and prophesies of this event because the author speaks of the "cubit posts", ("And the cubit-posts of the door were rocked at the voice of the one who cried, (one of the Seraphim), and the house was filled with smoke").
 

Epoisses

New member
I wonder what it is about the scriptures quoted in post number 1 that are not liked by the recent posters, who have changed the topic of this thread.

This may be one clue about why the scriptures quoted in post number one are not liked: "If the antichrist is sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple claiming to be God he is not going to be telling everyone to believe in Christ and the gospel." II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is being interpreted literally and made to say that the man of sin is to sit in the literal temple of God. What church theology interprets scripture in a consistently literal way?

In post number 1 many scriptures from the Gospel of Christ are quoted. Is this what is not liked?

We don't like your incessant preterist or historical approach to prophecy.

Prophecy = foretell the future not the past!
 

Epoisses

New member
Well it takes a "futuristic", almost sci-fi, mindset to see the possibilities for the future, when Satan and his horde of fallen angels are turned-loose to deceive all mankind. The world is just not prepared for an onslaught of supernatural beings appearing on earth. There certainly won't be anything "comic-book" about it.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Mat 24:24

Revelation talks about a war in the skies between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. Satan did not have seven heads and ten horns in his fall from heaven ergo it's an end-time war.
 

beameup

New member
Revelation talks about a war in the skies between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. Satan did not have seven heads and ten horns in his fall from heaven ergo it's an end-time war.

"Time" doesn't exist in the dimensions in which God, Satan, and the angels currently exist. So, you have to "think outside the box" of SPACE-TIME in order to properly understand this part of Revelation.
That being said, Satan and his fallen angels will "arrive" in our space-time and materialize upon the earth. Most would say that the "timing" coincides with the harpazo ("rapture").
Think of it as an "alien invasion" and you won't be far off.
 

daqq

Well-known member
We don't like your incessant preterist or historical approach to prophecy.

Prophecy = foretell the future not the past!

If you say there are any prophetic statements from the Apostolic writings which have never yet come to pass then it simply means that your version of the Messiah, (because of Matthew 24 and Mark 13), and your version of Paul, (because of passages like 1Cor 15:51-58, 1Thes 4:15-18, and 2Thes 2:1-12), and your version of the author of the Apocalypse do not comply with the Torah; and therefore your version of them all, including the Messiah, are false prophets whom we are not to heed or fear, (Deut 18:15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22). You are teaching and believing in a false Messiah who violates the Torah by way of your misunderstanding of spiritual things. The Gospel is to each in his or her own appointed times, times appointed of the Father, a day and hour which no one but the Father knows. To say that such things never happened to those to whom the authors wrote, (such as even those to whom Paul wrote), is a complete misunderstanding of holy and spiritual teachings in holy and spiritual writings. Do you suppose the Thessalonians were keeping a watchful eye on the literal physical temple in Jerusalem from almost a thousand miles away across the Mediterranean Sea? They did not have Wailing-Wall webcams, satellites, television, computers, ipads, iphones, telephones, or even electricity in those days. It is not that such things are not future, but that they happen to all true disciples of the Messiah in the times appointed of the Father, (when a child becomes a son, Gal 4:1-2), and they are therefore future as pertaining to you in your own appointed times; and truth be told, your apocalypse will not likely be televised. :chuckle:
 

Epoisses

New member
If you say there are any prophetic statements from the Apostolic writings which have never yet come to pass then it simply means that your version of the Messiah, (because of Matthew 24 and Mark 13), and your version of Paul, (because of passages like 1Cor 15:51-58, 1Thes 4:15-18, and 2Thes 2:1-12), and your version of the author of the Apocalypse do not comply with the Torah; and therefore your version of them all, including the Messiah, are false prophets whom we are not to heed or fear, (Deut 18:15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22). You are teaching and believing in a false Messiah who violates the Torah by way of your misunderstanding of spiritual things. The Gospel is to each in his or her own appointed times, times appointed of the Father, a day and hour which no one but the Father knows. To say that such things never happened to those to whom the authors wrote, (such as even those to whom Paul wrote), is a complete misunderstanding of holy and spiritual teachings in holy and spiritual writings. Do you suppose the Thessalonians were keeping a watchful eye on the literal physical temple in Jerusalem from almost a thousand miles away across the Mediterranean Sea? They did not have Wailing-Wall webcams, satellites, television, computers, ipads, iphones, telephones, or even electricity in those days. It is not that such things are not future, but that they happen to all true disciples of the Messiah in the times appointed of the Father, (when a child becomes a son, Gal 4:1-2), and they are therefore future as pertaining to you in your own appointed times; and truth be told, your apocalypse will not likely be televised. :chuckle:

I never said the 2nd coming could be predicted but Jesus himself said when all these things happen (end-time events) we will know his coming is near even at the doors.

The seven trumpets, two witnesses, little horn/man of sin, abomination of desolation, seven last plagues are all end-time events that precede the 2nd coming.
 

northwye

New member
"The seven trumpets, two witnesses, little horn/man of sin, abomination of desolation, seven last plagues are all end-time events that precede the 2nd coming."

II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is about the the falling away, or apostasy. It makes use of metaphoric language, and requires a knowledge of Acts 7: 48, I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and I Corinthians 6: 19 to get right. Remember that there are several other prophecies about an apostasy, such as Luke 13: 18-21, I Timothy 4: 1. II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and there are those prophecies about the false prophets, such as Matthew 24: 11, and II Peter 2: 1-3, which imply that there is an apostasy. The parable of the wheat and the tares of Matthew 13: 24-30 shows that there is to be tares as well as wheat, which, when combined with Luke 13: 21, saying that the leavening of the kingdom of God increases in time, can mean that the tares at some point will outnumber the wheat.

In Christian Zionist end time prophecy the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is always future and it happens only when the one man super anti-Christ of dispensationalism appears. In reality the falling away in our time can be seen to have started in the 19th century with several false doctrines, dispensationalism being one of them. I John says 2: 18 says there are many anti-Christs and I John 4:3 says there is a spirit of anti-Christ and when John wrote this he said that even now the spirit of anti-Christ is in the world.
 

Epoisses

New member
I agree that John Darby the father of modern dispensational Christianity began the falling away from truth that we see today. Before his time nearly all Christians believed in spiritual Israel while today only a handful do. But please do not confuse my beliefs with those of the Left Behind people. Many of the early church fathers were futurists who believed that Israel would come to prominence at the end where a future temple would be rebuilt at the command of the antichrist. These are basically my beliefs in a nutshell. You spiritualize away vast portions of apocalyptic prophecy which is just as bad as over literalizing everything like Darby. Most of prophecy is literal except for obviously symbolic portions like the beasts with heads and horns and the 144K as symbolic of God's elect in the last days.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Shalom.

I do not believe that the Old Covenant ended with the destruction of the Second Temple.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
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