Don't be Jewish be Christian

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I hope you will be thanking me shortly for helping to save your soul from Hell. So let's deal with your real and only issue, what do you make of Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. 4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgement he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.b 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,g and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

chair

Well-known member
A difficult chapter to understand. Especially if one reads it in the original Hebrew- and not in a Christian translation. Translations are always to some degree interpretations.

The context of the chapter is helpful. Who is being described in chapters 52 and 54?

And since you rather obviously think this chapter is all about Jesus, you'll have to explain a few things:
1. Why is the Messiah never mentioned in the chapter?
2. Was Jesus "despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain."?
3. Did Jesus "see his offspring and prolong his days"?

The chapter is indeed difficult to understand, but it is clearly not about Jesus.

Another important comment: If Jesus is the message underlying the Hebrew Bible, why is the message hidden in a few obscure passages?
 

beameup

New member
Another important comment: If Jesus is the message underlying the Hebrew Bible, why is the message hidden in a few obscure passages?
What is so "obscure" about Moses and all the elders sitting at the feet of God at Mt. Sinai?
 

chair

Well-known member
What is so "obscure" about Moses and all the elders sitting at the feet of God at Mt. Sinai?

I suppose obviously that means God is Jesus? Or maybe that God is Elvis...You'll have to help me out on that one.

It is an odd verse that contradicts other verses. Exodus 33:20, for example.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
A difficult chapter to understand. Especially if one reads it in the original Hebrew- and not in a Christian translation. Translations are always to some degree interpretations.

The context of the chapter is helpful. Who is being described in chapters 52 and 54?

And since you rather obviously think this chapter is all about Jesus, you'll have to explain a few things:
1. Why is the Messiah never mentioned in the chapter?
2. Was Jesus "despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain."?
3. Did Jesus "see his offspring and prolong his days"?

The chapter is indeed difficult to understand, but it is clearly not about Jesus.

Another important comment: If Jesus is the message underlying the Hebrew Bible, why is the message hidden in a few obscure passages?

Who is being described in chapters 52 and 54?

Jesus.

1. Why is the Messiah never mentioned in the chapter?

The word Messiah isn't mentioned but it is referring to Jesus who is the Messiah.

2. Was Jesus "despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain."?

Yes.

3. Did Jesus "see his offspring and prolong his days"?

Yes, the Christians are His offspring.

If Jesus is the message underlying the Hebrew Bible, why is the message hidden in a few obscure passages?

There's many more than a few, He is on just about every page in some way.
 

beameup

New member
I suppose obviously that means God is Jesus? Or maybe that God is Elvis...You'll have to help me out on that one.

It is an odd verse that contradicts other verses. Exodus 33:20, for example.

How many times does God have to physically appear to you (as in the Tanakh), before you move it from the "obscure" to the "obvious"?
Even the dumb donkey could see the obvious.
 

chair

Well-known member
Who is being described in chapters 52 and 54?

Jesus.
Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.

Sounds like Jesus?

1. Why is the Messiah never mentioned in the chapter?

The word Messiah isn't mentioned but it is referring to Jesus who is the Messiah.
This is just your say-so on this. It is rather odd that chapters that are clearly Messianic include prophecies that Jesus didn't fulfill.

2. Was Jesus "despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain."?

Yes.
Interesting. Are there descriptions of Jesus suffering and being in pain besides the crucifixion?
3. Did Jesus "see his offspring and prolong his days"?

Yes, the Christians are His offspring.

There is a just a tiny bit of interpretation going on here. Perhaps a little bit of twisting the plain meaning of a verse as well. Not very convincing- expect to the already convinced.

If Jesus is the message underlying the Hebrew Bible, why is the message hidden in a few obscure passages?

There's many more than a few, He is on just about every page in some way.

Only if you are wearing Christian glasses. If you are a Christian, you will read Jesus into everything. Just a question of 'interpreting' the texts 'properly' But you will not convince a non-Christian to believe in your Jesus based on that kind of thinking.
 

chair

Well-known member
How many times does God have to physically appear to you (as in the Tanakh), before you move it from the "obscure" to the "obvious"?
Even the dumb donkey could see the obvious.

If you hope to win me over to your loving religion by calling me a donkey- think again.

What exactly do you believe about Jesus? That he existed as a human all along, even before he was born? That He existed in parallel (or together with, whatever) to "the Father" and "the Holy Spirit" from the beginning of time?

There are a few references to God in human form. That verse in Exodus, for example. Or Adam hearing God walking in the Garden of Eden. How does one get from that to your Christian beliefs?

God was reported as having a human form, therefore He is a trinity, and therefore one day He will be born of woman, and therefore He will later be sacrificed to atone for all human sins.

Proof? The Elders of Israel had a picnic with God and saw Him.


Obvious?
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.

Sounds like Jesus?


This is just your say-so on this. It is rather odd that chapters that are clearly Messianic include prophecies that Jesus didn't fulfill.


Interesting. Are there descriptions of Jesus suffering and being in pain besides the crucifixion?


There is a just a tiny bit of interpretation going on here. Perhaps a little bit of twisting the plain meaning of a verse as well. Not very convincing- expect to the already convinced.



Only if you are wearing Christian glasses. If you are a Christian, you will read Jesus into everything. Just a question of 'interpreting' the texts 'properly' But you will not convince a non-Christian to believe in your Jesus based on that kind of thinking.


Yes it is most definitely Jesus:

Isaiah 52:
7How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!” 8Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices; together they shout for joy. When the Lord returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes. 9Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Jerusalem. 10The Lord will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God. 11Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the articles of the Lord’s house. 12But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the Lord will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard. 13See, my servant will act wiselyb ; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. 14Just as there were many who were appalled at himc — his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness— 15so he will sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

This is just your say-so on this. It is rather odd that chapters that are clearly Messianic include prophecies that Jesus didn't fulfill.

That's because He is coming back to fulfil those prophetic verses.


Interesting. Are there descriptions of Jesus suffering and being in pain besides the crucifixion?

When He was betrayed:

Zechariah 11:12-13 – “And I said unto them, ‘If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.”

When he was accused falsely:

Psalm 35:11 – “Malicious witnesses testify against me. They accuse me of things I don’t even know about.”

Isaiah 53:7-8a – “He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet He never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, He did not open His mouth. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death.”

There is a just a tiny bit of interpretation going on here. Perhaps a little bit of twisting the plain meaning of a verse as well. Not very convincing- expect to the already convinced.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

Only if you are wearing Christian glasses. If you are a Christian, you will read Jesus into everything. Just a question of 'interpreting' the texts 'properly' But you will not convince a non-Christian to believe in your Jesus based on that kind of thinking.

There are many ways people become a Christian. You can simply ask God if Jesus really is the Messiah for example. He's listening.
 

chair

Well-known member
Yes it is most definitely Jesus: ...
That's because He is coming back to fulfil those prophetic verses.
...

pick and choose your verses.
Jesus will come back one day and fulfill..- I'd rather take my chances buying a used car.

Seriously: I have been through this many times. What seems so blessed obvious to the Christian who is already convinced looks very different to the outsider.

How can you be so sure that I'll have the same hallucinations as you when I ask God a question?
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
pick and choose your verses.
Jesus will come back one day and fulfill..- I'd rather take my chances buying a used car.

Seriously: I have been through this many times. What seems so blessed obvious to the Christian who is already convinced looks very different to the outsider.

How can you be so sure that I'll have the same hallucinations as you when I ask God a question?

As a Jew you are probably still expecting Messiah Ben David and or Messiah Ben Joseph but Jews will be shocked when Jesus return as this Messiah. This is a guarantee like you get with a new Roll Royce but better.

If you pray with that attitude then how can you expect God to take the pray seriously.
 

chair

Well-known member
As a Jew you are probably still expecting Messiah Ben David and or Messiah Ben Joseph but Jews will be shocked when Jesus return as this Messiah. This is a guarantee like you get with a new Roll Royce but better.

If you pray with that attitude then how can you expect God to take the pray seriously.

It is very difficult for a devout Christian believer to think what the world looks like to a non-Christian, in this case a Jew. Try really hard to put yourself in the outsider's shoes.

Why should I consider it like a Rolls Royce guarantee? Because some guy on the internet said so?

Think of an argument that might work on someone who doesn't believe already. You're supposed to be smart- think about it.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
It is very difficult for a devout Christian believer to think what the world looks like to a non-Christian, in this case a Jew. Try really hard to put yourself in the outsider's shoes.

Why should I consider it like a Rolls Royce guarantee? Because some guy on the internet said so?

Think of an argument that might work on someone who doesn't believe already. You're supposed to be smart- think about it.

I was a non-Christian for longer than I have been a Christian and I only became a believer after studying were Jesus' dead body went; like the reverse of a 'who done it' and with a very odd twist:

http://creately.com/diagram/gzqv8c5z2/knxGs5iaraoQgyinDk3jxQMEYQA=
 
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chair

Well-known member
I was a non-Christian for longer than I have been a Christian and I only became a believer after studying were Jesus' dead body went; like the reverse of a 'who done it' and with a very odd twist:

http://creately.com/diagram/gzqv8c5z2/knxGs5iaraoQgyinDk3jxQMEYQA=

Ah, an interesting approach.
I know that the Resurrection is critical in Christian thinking (or at least for many Christians). The difficulty I have with that diagram is very basic:

It presupposes that the New Testament is an accurate unbiased historical document. So you'd have to prove that it is first, before even getting started on the Resurrection.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Ah, an interesting approach.
I know that the Resurrection is critical in Christian thinking (or at least for many Christians). The difficulty I have with that diagram is very basic:

It presupposes that the New Testament is an accurate unbiased historical document. So you'd have to prove that it is first, before even getting started on the Resurrection.

Of course, textural criticism of all the historical documents I looked at was the first step.
 
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