Discussion - Enyart vs. Ask Mr Religion (One on One)

[chatmaggot]

If you mean that God is the first cause of all that happens, yes, He is.

So Pyramidhead should be thanking God right now for his loss?

God’s creatures can do what they want, but what they want is determined by God in advance...

This just does not make sense to me!

I can do what I want...but what I want is what God determined that I wanted from eternity past.

I only want that which God wanted me to want?

If an atheist doesn't want to be saved...are you saying that God wants the atheist to not to want to be saved?

It seems so wrong!

 

[Nang]

So Pyramidhead should be thanking God right now for his loss?




This just does not make sense to me!

I can do what I want...but what I want is what God determined that I wanted from eternity past.

I only want that which God wanted me to want?

If an atheist doesn't want to be saved...are you saying that God wants the atheist to not to want to be saved?

It seems so wrong!

It doesn't matter how it "seems" to you, or how you "feel" about it . . . it is biblical.

"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God/ Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering, the vessels of wrath prpared for destruction . . .?" Romans 9:20-23

Any atheist who lives a life on this earth, who never repents of his unbelief, was created by God to be an atheist, and stay an atheist, and was formed by God for destruction, in order to manifest the wrath of God against unbelief and sin.

That is the truth.

Any atheist who lives on this earth, who converts, repents from unbelief and sin, and believes unto salvation, was created by God to be one of the elect in Christ, saved by grace, formed by God for glory, in order to manifest the riches of God's mercy:

"That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called . . ." Romans 9:23, 24a

That is the truth.

If you refuse to believe these truths found in the Word of God, you exhibit the mindset of an unbelieving atheist and vessel of wrath; despite all the religious language you can come up with which to pontificate and/or protest.

God is not mocked. God is not fooled.

God knows exactly how and why He created and formed each and every one of us.

Nang

 

[Mystery]

I am going to disagree.

Why has God ordained you to be wrong?

AMR, your attepmt to try and teach me about the letter to the Romans has me only doing this and this :yawn:.

You did not address a single point that I made, but instead have apparently graduated from the godrulz school of debate.

Romans 6: We are free from sin, but we must battle against sin

Nonsense! You have twisted Paul's words. Paul says no such thing in Romans 6 or anywhere else. In fact, for you to make that claim is a complete repudiation of the gospel itself.


As a Christian is Paul in bodage to sin?

As a Christian is Paul in the flesh?

As a Christian is Paul a wretched man?

 

[chatmaggot]

It doesn't matter how it "seems" to you, or how you "feel" about it . . . it is biblical.

"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God/ Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering, the vessels of wrath prpared for destruction . . .?" Romans 9:20-23

Any atheist who lives a life on this earth, who never repents of his unbelief, was created by God to be an atheist, and stay an atheist, and was formed by God for destruction, in order to manifest the wrath of God against unbelief and sin.

That is the truth.

Any atheist who lives on this earth, who converts, repents from unbelief and sin, and believes unto salvation, was created by God to be one of the elect in Christ, saved by grace, formed by God for glory, in order to manifest the riches of God's mercy:

"That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called . . ." Romans 9:23, 24a

That is the truth.

If you refuse to believe these truths found in the Word of God, you exhibit the mindset of an unbelieving atheist and vessel of wrath; despite all the religious language you can come up with which to pontificate and/or protest.

God is not mocked. God is not fooled.

God knows exactly how and why He created and formed each and every one of us.

Nang

Both you and Mr. Religion promote the most wicked ideas of them all. You two fools attribute the most vile acts to have been planned, ordained, predestined, selected, chosen, and are the desires of God's essence!

Your beliefs (Just like Pastor Cooks) tell people that God is RESPONSIBLE for every rape, murder, and child molestation. Not only that...but it glorifies God. That Nang, is wicked!

Why do you call evil good? Isaiah 5:20

Your and Mr. Religions beliefs are gross and wicked.

 

[Mystery]

Lies... :blabla:

:down:

more lies... :blabla:

:vomit:

even more lies... :blabla:

:execute:

 

[Nang]

Both you and Mr. Religion promote the most wicked ideas of them all.

You are calling Holy Scripture, "wicked."

Your beliefs (Just like Pastor Cooks)

Don't know who Pastor Cook is.

tell people that God is RESPONSIBLE for every rape, murder, and child molestation.

Sinners are responsible for their sins. (Romans 5:12)

God created evil to be consequential judgment against those sins. Every rape will be avenged. Every murder will be judged. Ever child molestation will send the perps to hell.

Not only that...but it glorifies God.

Justice glorifies God.

Eventual elimination of all sin and all wicked men will glorify God.

Faith is believing all that God does and ordains, is good and wise, even if we cannot always comprehend or appreciate the process.

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Both you and Mr. Religion promote the most wicked ideas of them all. You two ***** attribute the most vile acts to have been planned, ordained, predestined, selected, chosen, and are the desires of God's essence!

These terrible acts pale by comparison to the Crucifixion, which you no doubt disagree was planned, ordained, predestined...etc. And don't even get me started about Cyrus.

You think that if God granted you libertarian free will He is somehow out of the loop for the problem of evil?

You think your accountability to God presupposes your ability or your freedom?

Is God less glorious because He ordained that evil be?

Apparently you think like all the rest of the humanistic egalitarians that would define God in their own image.

God is sovereign and has ordained all things. God is good. Evil really exists. Therefore God, as sovereign has ordained that evil be. God, being good and sovereign, can and would surely eliminate evil if He did not have a good purpose for evil. Yet evil remains. Therefore it is good that evil exists.

Refresher reading assignment: Job 38-41. Read it on your knees.

 

[chatmaggot]

God is sovereign and has ordained all things. Therefore it is good that evil exists.

Refresher reading assignment: Job 38-41. Read it on your knees.

You need to get on YOUR knees and repent of your wicked teachings.

 

[Nang]

You need to get on YOUR knees and repent of your wicked teachings.

Before the Lord's omniscient witness, did the person posting as "chatmaggot" get on his knees and read Job Chapters 38 through 41, before again accusing AMR of being wicked?

Such details recorded, will be brought to light on the final day.

God is not mocked. He sees all that transpires . . .even on these (asinine) discussion groups.

Nang

 

[Clete]

We choose according to our greatest inclinations at the moment we so choose.

Again, AMR is intentionally lying here.

He knows full well that his doctrine teaches that "our greatest inclinations" are just as ordained as the choice itself is. AMR believes that EVERYTHING that happens has been ordained by God - EVERYTHING! Including our inclinations (all of them including our "greatest" ones), the choices we make, the choices we do not make, the choices God Himself makes, and everything else you can think of. According to AMR God ordained every single event that takes place and nothing that happens does so outside of God's direct sovereign control.

God is sovereign and has ordained all things. God is good. Evil really exists. Therefore God, as sovereign has ordained that evil be. God, being good and sovereign, can and would surely eliminate evil if He did not have a good purpose for evil. Yet evil remains. Therefore it is good that evil exists.

This is the core of AMR's belief. Everything else he says is a lie designed to dress up the ugliness that lies just beneath the surface (well its usually beneath the surface anyway). The difference between AMR and most other Calvinists though is that AMR knows that its all a pack of lies; he knows that its just rhetoric and word games, but he's so entrenched, so invested in the doctrine he can't see a way to shed himself of the web of lies he's told. He has been given over to a debased mind as the above quote clearly demonstrates.

One step toward the truth and the house of cards he's spent his entire life building and caring for and even loving comes crashing to the ground. His friendships will most likely evaporate, his family will think him a nut, and perhaps worst of all for him, he'll lose the respect of his colleges. Too high a price to pay, isn't it Mr. Religion?


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lon]

You need to get on YOUR knees and repent of your wicked teachings.

This is your response to someone telling you to read God's Word and pray?

I never respond in such a way. It is always an honor to read His Word humbly and pray. I cannot even fathom this response at all.

"I have and continue to do so" would have been an appropriate response, not this.

I will read it exactly as suggested. Will you? There is no greater call from a believer than to call another to humbly, prayerfully read His Word.

Can I get you to recant here?

 

[Clete]

Before the Lord's omniscient witness, did the person posting as "chatmaggot" get on his knees and read Job Chapters 38 through 41, before again accusing AMR of being wicked?

Such details recorded, will be brought to light on the final day.

God is not mocked. He sees all that transpires . . .even on these (asinine) discussion groups.

Nang

Do you wake up in the morning and decide that you are going to put some real effort into finding new and creative ways of saying hypocritical things to people, or is it that you just have a natural talent for it?

 

[Clete]

This is your response to someone telling you to read God's Word and pray?

I never respond in such a way. It is always an honor to read His Word humbly and pray. I cannot even fathom this response at all.

"I have and continue to do so" would have been an appropriate response, not this.

I will read it exactly as suggested. Will you? There is no greater call from a believer than to call another to humbly, prayerfully read His Word.

Can I get you to recant here?

Lon,

You need to pay closer attention. AMR just God though stating outright that God odained evil and that it is a good thing that evil exists.

That's evil Lon! Evil should be confronted, not thanked when they happen to say something that some limp-wristed, nicer than God fool can mindlessly take as being good advice.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He knows full well that his doctrine teaches that "our greatest inclinations" are just as ordained as the choice itself is. AMR believes that EVERYTHING that happens has been ordained by God - EVERYTHING!

This is probably my biggest frustration with settled viewers.

It's as if they want to have their cake and eat it too. They claim that EVERYTHING is ordained by God but then don't practice that notion on random occasions.

EVERYTHING means EVERYTHING - without exclusion.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

This is probably my biggest frustration with settled viewers.

It's as if they want to have their cake and eat it too. They claim that EVERYTHING is ordained by God but then don't practice that notion on random occasions.

EVERYTHING means EVERYTHING - without exclusion.

This is probably one of my biggest frustrations with unsettled viewers.

They cannot seem to grasp that God decrees all things that come to pass according to the nature of second causes (source):
(1) necessarily, e.g., the motion of the planets, atomic spin, etc.;
(2) freely -- voluntarily with no "violence being done to the will of the creature";
(3) contingently, i.e., with perfect regard to future event contingencies, as when God told David what Saul and Keilah would do to him if David remained in Keilah (1 Samuel 23:9-13).

 

[Stripe]

My biggest frustration with calvinists is that I can never understand their answers...

 

[Stripe]

AMR. Was it ordained by God that there be such a thing as second causes and if so would he understand the consequences of such?

 

[godrulz]

So Pyramidhead should be thanking God right now for his loss?

This just does not make sense to me!

I can do what I want...but what I want is what God determined that I wanted from eternity past.

I only want that which God wanted me to want?

If an atheist doesn't want to be saved...are you saying that God wants the atheist to not to want to be saved?

It seems so wrong!

It does not make sense because it does not make sense. It is a strained attempt to deny self-evident free will and to retain a wrong view of sovereignty. It is problematic and relies on semantical games to defend the indefensible...but what do I know?

Thx AMR for the explanation. If I understand it correctly, I do not accept it as the best biblical explanation of the issues. I will stick to omnicompetent, not omnicausal, responsive/providential, not meticulous control.

You fail to see that God can sovereignly chose to create significant others without ceasing to be sovereign. He can give us genuine freedom without risking defeat. The fact that the world is full of things and people contrary to God's will should be cause for pause. Things are not the way God intended them to be, but redemption and justice will take place in the end.

I will stick to a warfare model seen in the gospels by God with a face, not your blueprint view invented later in church history.

 

[godrulz]

It doesn't matter how it "seems" to you, or how you "feel" about it . . . it is biblical.

"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God/ Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering, the vessels of wrath prpared for destruction . . .?" Romans 9:20-23

Any atheist who lives a life on this earth, who never repents of his unbelief, was created by God to be an atheist, and stay an atheist, and was formed by God for destruction, in order to manifest the wrath of God against unbelief and sin.

That is the truth.

Any atheist who lives on this earth, who converts, repents from unbelief and sin, and believes unto salvation, was created by God to be one of the elect in Christ, saved by grace, formed by God for glory, in order to manifest the riches of God's mercy:

"That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called . . ." Romans 9:23, 24a

That is the truth.

If you refuse to believe these truths found in the Word of God, you exhibit the mindset of an unbelieving atheist and vessel of wrath; despite all the religious language you can come up with which to pontificate and/or protest.

God is not mocked. God is not fooled.

God knows exactly how and why He created and formed each and every one of us.

Nang

Applying a context about the sovereign election of Israel for service and mission to individual salvation/damnation is bad exegesis (proof texting) to support a wrong preconceived theology. Thx for confirming that your view should be rejected as impugning the character and ways of God.

He does not arbitrarily save one atheist and damn another atheist based on eternal decree. The destiny is decided as they make choices during their lives, not because God made a choice before they even existed. This is biblically defensible in principle.

 

[godrulz]

The circular reasoning is that you are assuming your definition of ....


re: Clete rep comment...

Many sources equate circular reasoning with begging the question (same thing or similar).