Creation vs. Evolution

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The Barbarian

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Thanks for the additional information. It's a good thing that I had Merit Algebra Trigonometry in school. I wish I would have taken Calculus. Seems difficult to use Carbon-14 dating.

It is. There are books written on the different ways careless technique can mess it up. However, it has nothing to do with paleontology or the age of the Earth. Too short a half-life for that. If you have that much math, why not go to a site that covers it, and check it out for yourself? Calculus is not necessary for many of the calculations.

Would you like to take a look? I know of some websites that explain it well.

Hey, what are you doing in Jail again?"

If I said, it would probably upset someone again.
 

The Barbarian

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I often hold off on responding to posts like the recent jab from Stipe, because I ask myself what kind of person, seeing what has been recently posted, would feel that Stipe is correct? Would it help our cause if I were to respond by lowering myself to the level of conduct Stipe has just engaged in? No, there are some board participants who I am almost happy are not on “our” side.

I know, I know. It hurts his feelings and really doesn't persuade anyone. I need more restraint. In a former time, I loved handling hecklers. It's a weakness. So much fun redirecting hostility. And yes, pointless.
 
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StanJ

New member
IMO, a day in Gen 1 is a day as today is a day. Only those who can't get past the so-called science of evolution, want it to be something else. God's word is clear, even under scrutiny.
As I'm not allowed to post links yet I copied it verbatim here.

[SIZE=+2]A Summary of Evidence[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]for Literal 24-hr Creation Days[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]in Genesis 1.[/SIZE] by Andrew S. Kulikovsky B.App.Sc(Hons) MA (candidate).


The following is a summary of the major BIBLICAL data which clearly shows that the days of creation in Genesis 1 are literal 24-hr days. It is by no means exhaustive, since such a presentation would fill an entire book (I am writing one at the moment!). Since my training is primarily in theology, hermeneutics and Biblical languages the presentation only discusses scripture and not science.
Note that the major scientific evidence for non-literal days (ie. an old earth), is starlight travel, radiometric dating methods and geological features. For scientific discussions of these see the following (which are again just a small sample. Many more discussions can be found in Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal and Creation Research Society Quarterly):
Starlight Travel
D. R. Humphreys, Starlight and Time, Master Books, Green Forest, AR, 1994.
D. R. Humphreys, "New Vistas of Space-Time Rebut the Critics," Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12.2 (1998), pp. 195-212.
Radiometric Dating
J. Woodmorappe, The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods, ICR, 1999.
A. Snelling, "Dubious Radiogenic Pb Behavior Places U-Th-Pb Mineral Dating in Doubt" Impact 319, ICR, 2000.
A. Snelling, ""Excess Argon": The "Achilles' Heel" of Potassium-Argon and Argon-Argon "Dating" of Volcanic Rocks" Impact 307, ICR, 1999.
A. Snelling, "Potassium-Argon and Argon-Argon Dating of Crustal Rocks and the Problem of Excess Argon" Impact 309, ICR, 1999.
S. Austin, "Excessively Old "Ages" For Grand Canyon Lava Flows" Impact 224, ICR.
Geology
S. Austin, Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe, ICR, 1994.
T. Walker, "Geology and the Young Earth" Creation 21.4 (1999). pp. 16-20.
G. Berthault "Genesis and Historical Geology: A Personal Perspective" Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12.2 (1998), pp. 218-221.
P. Julien, Y. Lan, & Y Raslan "Experimental Mechanics of Sand Stratification" Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12.2 (1998), pp. 213-217.
Philosophy of Science
T. S. Kuhn, The Structure of Scientifc Revolutions,
(This book is an absolute MUST for those who think that you can't dispute scientific "facts".

[SIZE=+1]1. yom + numerical = 24-hr day[/SIZE]
The first argument is that yom + numerical always refers to a normal 24-hr day.
Don Stoner (A New Look at an Old Earth, pp. 46-48) however, claims that this is not true. He cites Zech 14:7 as an example.
Zech 14:7 states: "It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light."
The day mentioned here is obviously the same day mentioned in vv. 1, 4 and 6. Since "a text without a context, is a pretext" we need to examine the immediate context of these verses.
It should be abundantly clear from v. 5 that on "that day" the Lord will come. It describes a time-space _EVENT_ in the future. How can the coming of the Lord take a long period of time? It is an event: at one moment on that day, He is not here - the next moment He has returned!
Don, however, believes it refers to the New Jerusalem, the eternal state. But if the "day" refers to the eternal state - an indefinite period of time - it could hardly be called "unique"!
Therefore, the "unique day" in Zech 14:7 does indeed refer to a literal 24-hr day.
Others have suggested Hosea 6:2 as an exception:
"After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence."
However, this verse is set in poetic parallelism - and parallelism of a specific kind. This parallelism is a common Semitic device which takes the form X // X + 1 (see Job 5:19; Proverbs 6:16; 30:15, 18; Amos 1:3, 6, 9 for more examples). Given that these instances are part of a well defined Semitic device, they must be interpreted in accordance with that device. In this case, the use
of "two days" and "three days" communicate that the restoration mentioned in the previous verse, will happen quickly and surely (See Cohen/Vandermey, Hosea & Amos, Epositors Bible Commentary). Therefore, these instances must refer to normal days as opposed to long periods, otherwise the device would lose its meaning ie. the restoration would _not_ be quick and sure if the days were long periods of time. There may also be a subtle prophetic allusion to the restoration of humanity after the death and resurrection of Christ - especially since virtually all the content of Hosea serve to prophetically illustrate future events. Again, this demands that the days be taken as 24-hr days.
Bradley and Olsen ("The Trustworthiness of Scripture in Areas Relating to Natural Science" in Hermeneutics, Inerrancy, and the Bible, Radmacher and Preus, eds. [Zondervan, 1984]) also object to this line of reasoning:
"There is no other place in the Old Testament where the intent is to describe events that involve multiple and/or sequential, indefinite periods of time. If the intent of Genesis 1 is to describe creation as occurring in six, indefinite time periods, it is a unique Old Testament event being recorded. Other descriptions where "yom" refers to an indefinite time period are all for a single time period. Thus, the absence of the use of "yamim" for other than regular days and the use of ordinals only before regular days elsewhere in the Old Testament cannot be given an unequivocal exegetical significance in view of the uniqueness of the events being described in Genesis 1 (i.e, sequential, indefinite time periods)."
The first problem here is that they assume what they are trying to prove ie. that the authors intent was to describe sequential indefinite periods of time. Secondly, "yom" by itself does not refer to an indefinite period of time. It only has this extended meaning when it is modified by a prepsoition such as "be" (eg. Gen 2:4). However, none of the instances in Genesis 1 are modified in this way. In addition, Numbers 29:12-35 also describes a numbered sequence of days which are clearly literal 24-hr days.
Thus the pattern of yom + numerical = 24 day does indeed hold.

[SIZE=+1]2. The use of ereb and boqer (morning and evening)[/SIZE]
The next argument is the use of evening and morning (ereb and boqer) as an idiom for a literal 24-hr day.
Don Stoner (pp. 45-46) objects to this by stating that these word are used together many times to refer to longer periods.
First he states that the use of "day and night" often refers to a continuous time. A store that is open "day and night" is open all the time. However, this analogy is irrelevant since we are not talking about "day and night" but about "evening and morning". Day and night essentially run into each other so that a store open day and night would be open all the time. However, a store that is open morning and evening would only be open for a short period in the morning and a short period in the evening but closed during the day and closed during the night. Thus Don's analogy fails. In any case, analogies are only illustrative, they don't constitute a proof or argument.
Don then cites Ex 18:13-14: "The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening." When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, "What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?"
He argues that the context implies that Moses was spending all his time judging, day after day. This may be true but the question is what specifically does "from morning till evening" actually mean? "From morning till evening" clearly means from when the sun comes up to when the sun goes down" ie. "all day". It does not mean day after day. We can of course deduce that this was happening day after day because Jethro advised to appoint other judges, but this comes from the wider context not the phrase
"from morning till evening" itself. Thus "from morning till evening" indicates that Moses was judging "all day" and the appointment of judges implies that this was happening "day after day."
Don also points to Ex 27:21 (and Lev 24:3) which states: "In the Tent of Meeting, outside the curtain that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to keep the lamps burning before the LORD from evening till morning. This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come."
As I have pointed out before, this is a bizarre argument. There is simply no way that "from evening till morning" can possibly refer to an indefinite period of time. "From evening till morning" means that the lamps were to be kept burning "all night". They would not have been kept burning all the time, since there would be no need for them during the light of day, and of course whenever the Israelites moved camp they would not be burning either. I find it hard to imagine how such a twisted interpretation can be gleaned from these verses.
In any case, none of the above verses is grammatically parallel to the instances of "evening and morning" in Gen 1. All the above instances are preceded by prepositions, but the instances in Gen 1 are independently conjuncted.
The closest grammatical parallel is Dan 8:14, where ereb and boqer are conjuncted together and refer to a literal 24-hr day: "He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.'"
Gen 1 has "wayehi ereb wayehi boqer" (and then there was evening and then there was morning). Dan 8:14 however has "ereb boqer" (evening [and] morning). The "and" is elliptical (a common occurrence in Biblical Hebrew) and we would not expect to find the verb "wayehi" used here, since Dan 8:14 is direct speech whereas Gen 1 is narrative.
Don argues that "ereb boqer" in Dan 8:14 refers to a period of 2,300 days. However, this is incorrect. It is true that "ereb boqer alpayim ushlsh meot" refers to a period of 2,300 literal days but we are only interested in what "ereb boqer" means. Therefore, if the modifier "alpayim ushlsh meot" (2,300) is dropped, it is clear that "ereb boqer" refers to a single day.
Don has also argued that the compound clause "wayehi ereb wayehi boqer" terminating each day should be translated as "and there was evenings and there was mornings". Since ereb and boqer have no plural form they could be translated as plurals (as in Dan 8:14). Therefore, each creation "day" represents a long span of "evenings and mornings".
Again, this is very poor exegesis. "ereb" and "boqer" may only be translated as plurals IF the context makes it clear that this is necessary. In the case of Dan 8:14, ereb and boqer are modified by the number "2,300" - an obvious indication that the plural should be used. However, there is no such modication in Gen 1, or any other contextual data to suggest that these words should be translated as plurals. In fact the context demands a singular translation, since the verb "wayehi" is singular so "ereb" and "boqer" must also be singular.
In any case, both ereb and boqer are preceded by a waw-consecutive. Therefore, if they were translated as plurals, it would imply that there was a long span of evenings and then a long span of mornings, which is, of course, complete nonsense.

[SIZE=+1]3. Exodus 20:11 and 31:17[/SIZE]
The 3rd argument for literal 24-hr creation days are the references to the creation days in Ex 20:11 and 31:17. These verses clearly state that the creation was completed in 6 literal ordinary work days.
Don Stoner objects (pp. 48-50) by arguing that sabbath days are merely a shadow of the eternal state, and that it is unsafe to come to conclusions about the length of an object by looking at its "shadow". He quotes Col 2:16-17 and Heb 8:5.
The above is certainly true, but it is completely irrelevant to the present discussion. Don is either completely confused about the whole concept of "types" or "shadows", or is trying to netralise this argument by "bait and switch".
The sabbath is a type of the eternal state, but, as Don pointed out, you can't come to conclusions about the length of this eternal state based on its shadow, which is the sabbath. Now it should be obvious that this has absolutely no bearing at all on the length of the days of creation since they are not even mentioned in the verses Don cites. The discussion is about the length of the days of creation, not the length of the eternal state.
Don goes on to cite Lev 25:3-4 as proof that such shadows apply directly to the working week: "For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards."
However, this verse does not even mention the working week! Rather, it talks about years NOT days! Neither does it have the causal explanation "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day" found in Ex 20:11 and 31:17. In these verses, the use of "ki" ("for, because") at the beginning of v. 11 indicates the creation week is the very basis of the working week.
Similarly, Gleason Archer argues that Exodus 20:11 does not demonstrate the creation days were 24 hours, any more than the eight day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves the wilderness wonderings, under Moses, lasted for eight days. But again, this is an invalid comparison. Although, the Feast of Tabernacles is prescribed to last for eight days (Leviticus 23:34-36), it does not contain the causal explanation "For in six days�" found in Exodus 20:11.
Don further states (p. 49) "...we really ought to reflect that God's week is not a shadow of ours but that ours is a shadow of His." Presumably, his reference to "God's week" means the creation week. However, this statement is again false. Firstly, types and shadows always precede the real thing - yet Don has it the other way around. Secondly, Ex 20:11 explicitly states that the creation week is the very basis of, and the reason for, our working week!
Next, Don appeals to the mention of the sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 in order to argue that the Sabbath is still continuing, and therefore that at least the 7th day is longer than 24-hrs. However, Don does not even bother to exegete the passage - he just asserts that what he has said is true, but a closer look at the passage clearly shows that this assertion is completely
wrong.


[SIZE=+1]4. Use of yom instead of 'olam[/SIZE]
The next argument is the use of "yom" instead of the use of "olam".
If the days are long periods of time then "olam" would be a more suitable word to use in order to communicate that meaning.
Don Stoner, however, contends that "olam" means "forever", in which case this would not be the most appropriate word to use.
But this is an unnecessarily narrow definition of the word "olam." The Princeton-BDB Lexicon give the definitions "long duration, antiquity, futurity". Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) states that the word "...is not confined to the future", but can be used to describe something that happened long ago "but rarely, if ever, points to a limitless past" and that the word does not in itself contain the idea of endlessness which "is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past and also by the fact that sometimes it is desirable to repeat the world, not merely saying "forever", but "forever and ever."
TWOT goes on to say that "olam" was used to refer to a long age or period of time, although there is no instance of this usage in the OT. In the LXX, "aion" was used to render "olam" and this word certainly contains the idea of a long age or period.
Therefore, if the days of Gen 1 were meant to be understood as long ages, "olam" would have been a far better choice than "yom".

[SIZE=+1]Conclusion[/SIZE]
There is also quite a bit of other evidence suggesting the days are literal 24-hr days, but at least 3 of these 4 arguments are pretty much conclusive in showing that the days of Gen 1 MUST be 24-hr days. When all this evidence is taken together it is simply overwhelming! There should be no doubt at all that these days are indeed 24-hr days.
Given that scripture is inspired by God, is authoritive and inerrant then it doesn't matter how convincing scientific arguments sound they simply cannot be a correct interpretation of the data!
Only scripture is inerrant - the natural world is not. Indeed, the natural word is fallen and under a curse.
I suspect that OECs will simply attempt to dismiss these arguments by claiming that God's word is inspired, but my interpretation is not. However, this would only be true if my interpretation does not match what the author intended to communicate. I have offered a solid exegetical basis for my interpretation and at the same time refuted some common objections. It is simply not good enough to protest "that's just your interpretation". Firstly, this is bordering on existentialism. Such protests also
inadvertently deny the possibility of knowing truly (a subtle form of agnosticism). If anyone has a problem with my interpretation then I challenge them to show me what is wrong with it.
 

The Barbarian

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All these arguments have been presented before, and have fallen apart on inspection.

Cut and paste the one you think is most compelling and we'll look at that. Then we can address the next one, and the next until we've looked at them all.

If you think any of them will stand up to inspection.
 

The Barbarian

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Piltdown man was a genuine embarrassment for science - before evolutionists debunked it. You see, evolutionary theory predicted that an upright stance and smaller face would precede a large brain.

And later, after Piltdown was debunked, new finds confirmed that prediction.

We don't know for certain if it was a creationist hoax, but it was done by someone who either didn't know the evidence or was trying to throw science off the trail.
 

noguru

Well-known member
IMO, a day in Gen 1 is a day as today is a day. Only those who can't get past the so-called science of evolution, want it to be something else. God's word is clear, even under scrutiny.
As I'm not allowed to post links yet I copied it verbatim here.

[SIZE=+2]A Summary of Evidence[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]for Literal 24-hr Creation Days[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]in Genesis 1.[/SIZE] by Andrew S. Kulikovsky B.App.Sc(Hons) MA (candidate).


The following is a summary of the major BIBLICAL data which clearly shows that the days of creation in Genesis 1 are literal 24-hr days. It is by no means exhaustive, since such a presentation would fill an entire book (I am writing one at the moment!). Since my training is primarily in theology, hermeneutics and Biblical languages the presentation only discusses scripture and not science.
Note that the major scientific evidence for non-literal days (ie. an old earth), is starlight travel, radiometric dating methods and geological features. For scientific discussions of these see the following (which are again just a small sample. Many more discussions can be found in Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal and Creation Research Society Quarterly):
Starlight Travel
D. R. Humphreys, Starlight and Time, Master Books, Green Forest, AR, 1994.
D. R. Humphreys, "New Vistas of Space-Time Rebut the Critics," Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12.2 (1998), pp. 195-212.
Radiometric Dating
J. Woodmorappe, The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods, ICR, 1999.
A. Snelling, "Dubious Radiogenic Pb Behavior Places U-Th-Pb Mineral Dating in Doubt" Impact 319, ICR, 2000.
A. Snelling, ""Excess Argon": The "Achilles' Heel" of Potassium-Argon and Argon-Argon "Dating" of Volcanic Rocks" Impact 307, ICR, 1999.
A. Snelling, "Potassium-Argon and Argon-Argon Dating of Crustal Rocks and the Problem of Excess Argon" Impact 309, ICR, 1999.
S. Austin, "Excessively Old "Ages" For Grand Canyon Lava Flows" Impact 224, ICR.
Geology
S. Austin, Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe, ICR, 1994.
T. Walker, "Geology and the Young Earth" Creation 21.4 (1999). pp. 16-20.
G. Berthault "Genesis and Historical Geology: A Personal Perspective" Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12.2 (1998), pp. 218-221.
P. Julien, Y. Lan, & Y Raslan "Experimental Mechanics of Sand Stratification" Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12.2 (1998), pp. 213-217.
Philosophy of Science
T. S. Kuhn, The Structure of Scientifc Revolutions,
(This book is an absolute MUST for those who think that you can't dispute scientific "facts".

[SIZE=+1]1. yom + numerical = 24-hr day[/SIZE]
The first argument is that yom + numerical always refers to a normal 24-hr day.
Don Stoner (A New Look at an Old Earth, pp. 46-48) however, claims that this is not true. He cites Zech 14:7 as an example.
Zech 14:7 states: "It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light."
The day mentioned here is obviously the same day mentioned in vv. 1, 4 and 6. Since "a text without a context, is a pretext" we need to examine the immediate context of these verses.
It should be abundantly clear from v. 5 that on "that day" the Lord will come. It describes a time-space _EVENT_ in the future. How can the coming of the Lord take a long period of time? It is an event: at one moment on that day, He is not here - the next moment He has returned!
Don, however, believes it refers to the New Jerusalem, the eternal state. But if the "day" refers to the eternal state - an indefinite period of time - it could hardly be called "unique"!
Therefore, the "unique day" in Zech 14:7 does indeed refer to a literal 24-hr day.
Others have suggested Hosea 6:2 as an exception:
"After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence."
However, this verse is set in poetic parallelism - and parallelism of a specific kind. This parallelism is a common Semitic device which takes the form X // X + 1 (see Job 5:19; Proverbs 6:16; 30:15, 18; Amos 1:3, 6, 9 for more examples). Given that these instances are part of a well defined Semitic device, they must be interpreted in accordance with that device. In this case, the use
of "two days" and "three days" communicate that the restoration mentioned in the previous verse, will happen quickly and surely (See Cohen/Vandermey, Hosea & Amos, Epositors Bible Commentary). Therefore, these instances must refer to normal days as opposed to long periods, otherwise the device would lose its meaning ie. the restoration would _not_ be quick and sure if the days were long periods of time. There may also be a subtle prophetic allusion to the restoration of humanity after the death and resurrection of Christ - especially since virtually all the content of Hosea serve to prophetically illustrate future events. Again, this demands that the days be taken as 24-hr days.
Bradley and Olsen ("The Trustworthiness of Scripture in Areas Relating to Natural Science" in Hermeneutics, Inerrancy, and the Bible, Radmacher and Preus, eds. [Zondervan, 1984]) also object to this line of reasoning:
"There is no other place in the Old Testament where the intent is to describe events that involve multiple and/or sequential, indefinite periods of time. If the intent of Genesis 1 is to describe creation as occurring in six, indefinite time periods, it is a unique Old Testament event being recorded. Other descriptions where "yom" refers to an indefinite time period are all for a single time period. Thus, the absence of the use of "yamim" for other than regular days and the use of ordinals only before regular days elsewhere in the Old Testament cannot be given an unequivocal exegetical significance in view of the uniqueness of the events being described in Genesis 1 (i.e, sequential, indefinite time periods)."
The first problem here is that they assume what they are trying to prove ie. that the authors intent was to describe sequential indefinite periods of time. Secondly, "yom" by itself does not refer to an indefinite period of time. It only has this extended meaning when it is modified by a prepsoition such as "be" (eg. Gen 2:4). However, none of the instances in Genesis 1 are modified in this way. In addition, Numbers 29:12-35 also describes a numbered sequence of days which are clearly literal 24-hr days.
Thus the pattern of yom + numerical = 24 day does indeed hold.

[SIZE=+1]2. The use of ereb and boqer (morning and evening)[/SIZE]
The next argument is the use of evening and morning (ereb and boqer) as an idiom for a literal 24-hr day.
Don Stoner (pp. 45-46) objects to this by stating that these word are used together many times to refer to longer periods.
First he states that the use of "day and night" often refers to a continuous time. A store that is open "day and night" is open all the time. However, this analogy is irrelevant since we are not talking about "day and night" but about "evening and morning". Day and night essentially run into each other so that a store open day and night would be open all the time. However, a store that is open morning and evening would only be open for a short period in the morning and a short period in the evening but closed during the day and closed during the night. Thus Don's analogy fails. In any case, analogies are only illustrative, they don't constitute a proof or argument.
Don then cites Ex 18:13-14: "The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening." When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, "What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?"
He argues that the context implies that Moses was spending all his time judging, day after day. This may be true but the question is what specifically does "from morning till evening" actually mean? "From morning till evening" clearly means from when the sun comes up to when the sun goes down" ie. "all day". It does not mean day after day. We can of course deduce that this was happening day after day because Jethro advised to appoint other judges, but this comes from the wider context not the phrase
"from morning till evening" itself. Thus "from morning till evening" indicates that Moses was judging "all day" and the appointment of judges implies that this was happening "day after day."
Don also points to Ex 27:21 (and Lev 24:3) which states: "In the Tent of Meeting, outside the curtain that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to keep the lamps burning before the LORD from evening till morning. This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come."
As I have pointed out before, this is a bizarre argument. There is simply no way that "from evening till morning" can possibly refer to an indefinite period of time. "From evening till morning" means that the lamps were to be kept burning "all night". They would not have been kept burning all the time, since there would be no need for them during the light of day, and of course whenever the Israelites moved camp they would not be burning either. I find it hard to imagine how such a twisted interpretation can be gleaned from these verses.
In any case, none of the above verses is grammatically parallel to the instances of "evening and morning" in Gen 1. All the above instances are preceded by prepositions, but the instances in Gen 1 are independently conjuncted.
The closest grammatical parallel is Dan 8:14, where ereb and boqer are conjuncted together and refer to a literal 24-hr day: "He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.'"
Gen 1 has "wayehi ereb wayehi boqer" (and then there was evening and then there was morning). Dan 8:14 however has "ereb boqer" (evening [and] morning). The "and" is elliptical (a common occurrence in Biblical Hebrew) and we would not expect to find the verb "wayehi" used here, since Dan 8:14 is direct speech whereas Gen 1 is narrative.
Don argues that "ereb boqer" in Dan 8:14 refers to a period of 2,300 days. However, this is incorrect. It is true that "ereb boqer alpayim ushlsh meot" refers to a period of 2,300 literal days but we are only interested in what "ereb boqer" means. Therefore, if the modifier "alpayim ushlsh meot" (2,300) is dropped, it is clear that "ereb boqer" refers to a single day.
Don has also argued that the compound clause "wayehi ereb wayehi boqer" terminating each day should be translated as "and there was evenings and there was mornings". Since ereb and boqer have no plural form they could be translated as plurals (as in Dan 8:14). Therefore, each creation "day" represents a long span of "evenings and mornings".
Again, this is very poor exegesis. "ereb" and "boqer" may only be translated as plurals IF the context makes it clear that this is necessary. In the case of Dan 8:14, ereb and boqer are modified by the number "2,300" - an obvious indication that the plural should be used. However, there is no such modication in Gen 1, or any other contextual data to suggest that these words should be translated as plurals. In fact the context demands a singular translation, since the verb "wayehi" is singular so "ereb" and "boqer" must also be singular.
In any case, both ereb and boqer are preceded by a waw-consecutive. Therefore, if they were translated as plurals, it would imply that there was a long span of evenings and then a long span of mornings, which is, of course, complete nonsense.

[SIZE=+1]3. Exodus 20:11 and 31:17[/SIZE]
The 3rd argument for literal 24-hr creation days are the references to the creation days in Ex 20:11 and 31:17. These verses clearly state that the creation was completed in 6 literal ordinary work days.
Don Stoner objects (pp. 48-50) by arguing that sabbath days are merely a shadow of the eternal state, and that it is unsafe to come to conclusions about the length of an object by looking at its "shadow". He quotes Col 2:16-17 and Heb 8:5.
The above is certainly true, but it is completely irrelevant to the present discussion. Don is either completely confused about the whole concept of "types" or "shadows", or is trying to netralise this argument by "bait and switch".
The sabbath is a type of the eternal state, but, as Don pointed out, you can't come to conclusions about the length of this eternal state based on its shadow, which is the sabbath. Now it should be obvious that this has absolutely no bearing at all on the length of the days of creation since they are not even mentioned in the verses Don cites. The discussion is about the length of the days of creation, not the length of the eternal state.
Don goes on to cite Lev 25:3-4 as proof that such shadows apply directly to the working week: "For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards."
However, this verse does not even mention the working week! Rather, it talks about years NOT days! Neither does it have the causal explanation "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day" found in Ex 20:11 and 31:17. In these verses, the use of "ki" ("for, because") at the beginning of v. 11 indicates the creation week is the very basis of the working week.
Similarly, Gleason Archer argues that Exodus 20:11 does not demonstrate the creation days were 24 hours, any more than the eight day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves the wilderness wonderings, under Moses, lasted for eight days. But again, this is an invalid comparison. Although, the Feast of Tabernacles is prescribed to last for eight days (Leviticus 23:34-36), it does not contain the causal explanation "For in six days�" found in Exodus 20:11.
Don further states (p. 49) "...we really ought to reflect that God's week is not a shadow of ours but that ours is a shadow of His." Presumably, his reference to "God's week" means the creation week. However, this statement is again false. Firstly, types and shadows always precede the real thing - yet Don has it the other way around. Secondly, Ex 20:11 explicitly states that the creation week is the very basis of, and the reason for, our working week!
Next, Don appeals to the mention of the sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 in order to argue that the Sabbath is still continuing, and therefore that at least the 7th day is longer than 24-hrs. However, Don does not even bother to exegete the passage - he just asserts that what he has said is true, but a closer look at the passage clearly shows that this assertion is completely
wrong.


[SIZE=+1]4. Use of yom instead of 'olam[/SIZE]
The next argument is the use of "yom" instead of the use of "olam".
If the days are long periods of time then "olam" would be a more suitable word to use in order to communicate that meaning.
Don Stoner, however, contends that "olam" means "forever", in which case this would not be the most appropriate word to use.
But this is an unnecessarily narrow definition of the word "olam." The Princeton-BDB Lexicon give the definitions "long duration, antiquity, futurity". Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) states that the word "...is not confined to the future", but can be used to describe something that happened long ago "but rarely, if ever, points to a limitless past" and that the word does not in itself contain the idea of endlessness which "is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past and also by the fact that sometimes it is desirable to repeat the world, not merely saying "forever", but "forever and ever."
TWOT goes on to say that "olam" was used to refer to a long age or period of time, although there is no instance of this usage in the OT. In the LXX, "aion" was used to render "olam" and this word certainly contains the idea of a long age or period.
Therefore, if the days of Gen 1 were meant to be understood as long ages, "olam" would have been a far better choice than "yom".

[SIZE=+1]Conclusion[/SIZE]
There is also quite a bit of other evidence suggesting the days are literal 24-hr days, but at least 3 of these 4 arguments are pretty much conclusive in showing that the days of Gen 1 MUST be 24-hr days. When all this evidence is taken together it is simply overwhelming! There should be no doubt at all that these days are indeed 24-hr days.
Given that scripture is inspired by God, is authoritive and inerrant then it doesn't matter how convincing scientific arguments sound they simply cannot be a correct interpretation of the data!
Only scripture is inerrant - the natural world is not. Indeed, the natural word is fallen and under a curse.
I suspect that OECs will simply attempt to dismiss these arguments by claiming that God's word is inspired, but my interpretation is not. However, this would only be true if my interpretation does not match what the author intended to communicate. I have offered a solid exegetical basis for my interpretation and at the same time refuted some common objections. It is simply not good enough to protest "that's just your interpretation". Firstly, this is bordering on existentialism. Such protests also
inadvertently deny the possibility of knowing truly (a subtle form of agnosticism). If anyone has a problem with my interpretation then I challenge them to show me what is wrong with it.

Why should your opinion have any credibility?
 

6days

New member
DavisBJ said:
For now I am going to jump directly to the end of your post, where you refer to R. H. Brown’s article at the CRS in which an explanation for old C-14 ages can be shown to be actually much younger.
Uh.....
I should have used a online article that is free. I mentioned that article since it suggests the 40,000 year old dates from C14 testing could actually be closer to 4,000 allowing for the global flood.*

If your starting position is that conditions on earth have been relatively consistent for a hundred thousand years,then carbon-14 dating would likely be providing reasonably close dates. *

My position is that the Bible is true....there was a global flood which wiped out all vegetation on earth....and that has drastically affected the ratio of C14 to C12, giving us exaggerated dates. That explanation, or that interpretation, better fits the evidence than the old earth explanations. Finding C14 in coal, dino soft tissue and diamonds is expected in the young earth model.*

DavisBJ said:
As I read R. H. Brown’s article I have to continually be cognizant that he hijacks the meaning of some terms and reassigns them YEC meanings. Specifically, he uses the term “real time”, by which he means the time that is compatible with YEC views. For example, in the case you mention, the “real-time” age (meaning YEC age) of the sample is about 5000 years, but the “C-14 age” is 40,000 years (in the world of real science this C-14 age is close to the real honest-to-gosh valid truthful on-the-spot correct age). Times and ages predating Genesis Brown usually speaks of as C-14 ages.
Laughing... not at you...but how we both look at evidence from our own biased worldviews. Let me ask...If "in the world of real science this C-14 age is close to the real honest-to-gosh valid truthful on-the-spot correct age" then is coal really just 40,000 years old?
DavisBJ said:
Here at TOL, and most particularly several times in this thread, ultra-zealous Christians have confidently asserted that the Bible is “the inerrant word of God”. I put the idea of “inerrant” next to almost a full page that Brown devotes to discussing disagreements between Christian scholars over details of Bible timelines as derived from Biblical texts (See the section he titles “Biblical Constraints”). He has to face that issue of what is the "correct" timeline, because for him to come up with a consistent mathematical way of adjusting C-14 dates to YEC dates, he has to decide just what set of YEC dates are the “right” ones.
I am one of those "ultra-zealous Christians have confidently asserted that the Bible is “the inerrant word of God”. Although, I'm *not familiar with Brown I don't have a huge problem with him using a date of 5000 years ago for the flood. I believe it was closer to 4500 years though.*

DavisBJ said:
On my part I would be interested to know if, in the 25 years since this paper came out, new and more reliable dendochronological measurements have been made.
Seems like a bunny trail to me. He could have ventured off in all kinds of directions such as Egyptian chronology or distant starlight. I realize that various fields of science need to be consistent with each other. ..but it all comes back to what our starting worldview.*

DavisBJ said:
Adjusting the Assumptions to get the Answer You Want
In origins science... that is often how its done. I could mention a whole host of evolutionary assumptions (assumptions based on beliefs) which science has proven wrong. Eg. Junk DNA, useless appendix, psuedogenes, Neandertals etc.

DavisBJ said:
Immediately following that, still in the same section of the paper, is where he addresses what you brought up – the 40,000 year C-14 age being actually from coal that is only a fraction of that age. But, and this seems to be a pretty major issue here, is something you have alluded to, the age of coal. He (and I think you) maintain that coal is a product formed in the time of (and aided by) the flood. Based on that assumption, which itself flies in the face of what mainstream science believes, he concludes the reason that coal formed as recently as the flood can only have the low C-14 levels it does is because the C-14 concentrations at that time were so low.
It flies in the face of mainstream science....but so has many other ideas which were eventually proven correct. And... rapid coal formation is consistent with science and the Biblical model.

But...let me create my own bunny trail attempting to show how science is consistent with our (yours / mine) worldview. John Sanford is a world renowned geneticist whose reseach and inventions has effected everyone on earth. He was an atheist who claimed he breathed evolution...it was his life. He became a Christian but still held on to his old earth beliefs. But over the course of the next few years ... he slowly realized that everything he believed and had been taught was wrong. He now says 'evolution is impossible'. The evidence was the same...but the conclusions polar opposites. (He mentions scientists who came to faith only after being convinced by evidence, but I think that is not typical)


DavisBJ said:
From there on in his paper, using that claim, he proceeds to develop the mathematical model that maps C-14 ages onto YEC compatible dates. So all he has done is casually declare the initial condition that he needs (low C-14 at flood times), and proceeds to use that as an established fact. In reality all he really did is kick the ball into two other areas of dispute – whether coal is really a product of the flood or whether it is truly ancient, and whether the flood of the proportions YECs believe in actually occurred.

At this point I invite you to see if you think I have understood R. H. Brown’s presentation correctly, and feel free to offer your adjustments to my analysis.

Well.... I think you have been reasonably fair in summing up how C14 dating is consistent with the Bible. He starts with the 'assumption' that God's Word is absolute truth. He then shows how C14 dating of preflood organic matter is consistent with what the preflood world may have been like.

No matter what conclusions we arrive at... we base it on a priori beliefs.

DavisBJ said:
sounds very much like you concur that the decay rate of C-14 is not at question. Brown (and I presume you) feel the issue lies in the available concentration of C-14 to explain why old C-14 ages must be dramatically shortened.

The ratio of C14 to C12 would be drastically different in the preflood world.
 

alwight

New member
[SIZE=+1]Conclusion[/SIZE]
There is also quite a bit of other evidence suggesting the days are literal 24-hr days, but at least 3 of these 4 arguments are pretty much conclusive in showing that the days of Gen 1 MUST be 24-hr days. When all this evidence is taken together it is simply overwhelming! There should be no doubt at all that these days are indeed 24-hr days.
The material evidence for an old Earth is pretty much conclusive and overwhelming if taken together.
Material evidence indicates a timescale of billions of years.
Material evidence from over 3.5 million years ago shows that not only was there such a time but days were only 23 hours long.

Given that scripture is inspired by God, is authoritive and inerrant then it doesn't matter how convincing scientific arguments sound they simply cannot be a correct interpretation of the data!
Only scripture is inerrant - the natural world is not. Indeed, the natural word is fallen and under a curse.
Why should a scripture be granted such special pleading and thus deemed as an absolute evidence of itself?
Why exactly should any ancient scripture be considered inerrant?

I suspect that OECs will simply attempt to dismiss these arguments by claiming that God's word is inspired, but my interpretation is not. However, this would only be true if my interpretation does not match what the author intended to communicate. I have offered a solid exegetical basis for my interpretation and at the same time refuted some common objections. It is simply not good enough to protest "that's just your interpretation". Firstly, this is bordering on existentialism. Such protests also
inadvertently deny the possibility of knowing truly (a subtle form of agnosticism). If anyone has a problem with my interpretation then I challenge them to show me what is wrong with it.
If, as you indicate above, you will not allow even the most rigorous and well evidenced science to contradict a literal interpretation of your scripture in any way then attempting to find fault with selected scientific works, with science, where you perhaps feel it is possibly erroneous, is imo rather disingenuous and little more than opportunistic mud slinging, hoping that some will stick.
It simply doesn't matter what science is offered to you since the bottom line is that scripture cannot ever be wrong, but science can.

YECs simply want their cake and eat it.
If YECs can find fault with scientific conclusions by using the scientific method against it, they will, but if they can't then scripture is simply conveniently trotted out to trump it. :plain:
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
If your starting position is that conditions on earth have been relatively consistent for a hundred thousand years,then carbon-14 dating would likely be providing reasonably close dates. *

We know that it is, because we can calibrate the system by checking lake varves of known age. Would you like to know how we know those are right?

My position is that the Bible is true

More precisely your position is that your new interepretation of the Bible is correct.

....there was a global flood which wiped out all vegetation on earth....

The Bible doesn't say that.

and that has drastically affected the ratio of C14 to C12, giving us exaggerated dates.

Not possible. Most of the photosynthesis on Earth comes from the oceans, which would have greatly increased if there was a real worldwide flood. So that idea crashes and burns.

That explanation, or that interpretation, better fits the evidence than the old earth explanations.

And now, you have learned that it doesn't.

Finding C14 in coal

It's noteworthy that over the years, the C14 "age" of coal has gotten older and older. There's a good reason for this; every time they find a way to make the method more sensitive, the age gets pushed back. In otherwords, the residual amount is nearly zero and the more sensitive the method is, the older the result. Some coal, from open seams, has tested younger. Bacteria growing into the seams provided new C-14. Diamonds also test to the lower limit of the method, except in cases where there are significant concentrations of radioactive material in the surrounding rock.

Presence of carbon-14 in the isotopic signature of a sample of carbonaceous material possibly indicates its contamination by biogenic sources or the decay of radioactive material in surrounding geologic strata.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

In origins science... that is often how its done. I could mention a whole host of evolutionary assumptions (assumptions based on beliefs) which science has proven wrong. Eg. Junk DNA

Scientists call it "non-coding DNA." As I showed you, there were, in the mid-60s, articles in the literature discussing the functions of non-coding DNA. Some of it is almost certainly junk. But you've been misled about how much of it.

useless appendix

Vestigial. Not useless. As Darwin pointed, out, many vestigial organs having lost their original function, may well have other functions. Our appendix is no longer digesting coarse plant material, but does still provide a harbor for beneficial bacteria, and even has some lymphode tissue.

psuedogenes

Would you like to learn how we know about psuedogenes?

Neandertals etc.

As you learned, the creationist notion of Neanderals being apes and not human, was completely wrong. And recent evolutionist investigations of their DNA demonstrate that far from the brutish apelike creature creationists imagined, they are a subspecies of our own H. sapiens.

But again, your biggest error is to assume the production of C-14 in plant matter would end during a worldwide flood. Since most photosynthesis goes on in the sea, it would actually increase.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I often hold off on responding to posts like the recent jab from Stipe, because I ask myself what kind of person, seeing what has been recently posted, would feel that Stipe is correct? Would it help our cause if I were to respond by lowering myself to the level of conduct Stipe has just engaged in? No, there are some board participants who I am almost happy are not on “our” side.

Dear Davis,

I find myself agreeing with Stripe's posts more and more. He and 6days, share my opinion the best, to be honest. He says it like it is!! You only want him to agree with everything you have to say!

Michael

:argue:
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
IMO, a day in Gen 1 is a day as today is a day. Only those who can't get past the so-called science of evolution, want it to be something else. God's word is clear, even under scrutiny.
As I'm not allowed to post links yet I copied it verbatim here.

[SIZE=+2]A Summary of Evidence[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]for Literal 24-hr Creation Days[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]in Genesis 1.[/SIZE] by Andrew S. Kulikovsky B.App.Sc(Hons) MA (candidate).

However, this would only be true if my interpretation does not match what the author intended to communicate. I have offered a solid exegetical basis for my interpretation and at the same time refuted some common objections. It is simply not good enough to protest "that's just your interpretation". Firstly, this is bordering on existentialism. Such protests also
inadvertently deny the possibility of knowing truly (a subtle form of agnosticism). If anyone has a problem with my interpretation then I challenge them to show me what is wrong with it.


Dear StanJ,

I read most of it and am very pleased. You have a theological background or degree, or what. Let me know. I enjoyed reading it, but it is incredibly long. Some people might not even tend to read it, because they feel too intimidated because of it's length. Thanks again. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
All these arguments have been presented before, and have fallen apart on inspection.

Cut and paste the one you think is most compelling and we'll look at that. Then we can address the next one, and the next until we've looked at them all.

If you think any of them will stand up to inspection.


Dear The Barbarian,

You just feel that way because you don't want the word 'day' to mean only 24 hours long. God spoke things into existence. And Jesus killed a tree just by talking to it. You've got to realize They are more powerful than you might think. I don't believe the Universe was as big 7,000 years ago as compared to how big it is now. God created things but did not create them all as to be babies, but instead 'older' creations, and that includes the Universe and Earth. Quit with the 4.3 billion years. It's horse dung. God would NEVER take that long to speak something into existence!! Your scientists' dating techniques, including using a spectrum of light, are found wanting.

Michael

:argue: :sigh:
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Piltdown man was a genuine embarrassment for science - before evolutionists debunked it. You see, evolutionary theory predicted that an upright stance and smaller face would precede a large brain.

And later, after Piltdown was debunked, new finds confirmed that prediction.

We don't know for certain if it was a creationist hoax, but it was done by someone who either didn't know the evidence or was trying to throw science off the trail.


I remember Piltdown man. That was filed-down man. Someone filed down his jaw to fit in order for it to be considered real.

Michael

:cloud9:
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
You just feel that way because you don't want the word 'day' to mean only 24 hours long.

In other words, as St. Augustine wrote, I accept it literally. That is, what it actually says.

God spoke things into existence.

He says the Earth brought forth living things. He created nature to work as He intended. He's a lot more powerful than you think He is.

I don't believe the Universe was as big 7,000 years ago as compared to how big it is now.

It's getting bigger. But it not that fast.

God created things but did not create them all as to be babies, but instead 'older' creations, and that includes the Universe and Earth.

If you thought about that, you might realize that's accusing Him of being deceptive. As St. Paul wrote:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.


He isn't dishonest, and the evidence of His power and might are right there in nature for you to see.

Quit with the 4.3 billion years. It's horse dung. God would NEVER take that long to speak something into existence!!

Stop telling God what to do.

Your scientists' dating techniques, including using a spectrum of light, are found wanting.

They are, part of that understanding from things that are made. Why not just accept what it is?
 

everready

New member
We know that it is, because we can calibrate the system by checking lake varves of known age. Would you like to know how we know those are right?



More precisely your position is that your new interepretation of the Bible is correct.



The Bible doesn't say that.



Not possible. Most of the photosynthesis on Earth comes from the oceans, which would have greatly increased if there was a real worldwide flood. So that idea crashes and burns.



And now, you have learned that it doesn't.



It's noteworthy that over the years, the C14 "age" of coal has gotten older and older. There's a good reason for this; every time they find a way to make the method more sensitive, the age gets pushed back. In otherwords, the residual amount is nearly zero and the more sensitive the method is, the older the result. Some coal, from open seams, has tested younger. Bacteria growing into the seams provided new C-14. Diamonds also test to the lower limit of the method, except in cases where there are significant concentrations of radioactive material in the surrounding rock.

Presence of carbon-14 in the isotopic signature of a sample of carbonaceous material possibly indicates its contamination by biogenic sources or the decay of radioactive material in surrounding geologic strata.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14



Scientists call it "non-coding DNA." As I showed you, there were, in the mid-60s, articles in the literature discussing the functions of non-coding DNA. Some of it is almost certainly junk. But you've been misled about how much of it.



Vestigial. Not useless. As Darwin pointed, out, many vestigial organs having lost their original function, may well have other functions. Our appendix is no longer digesting coarse plant material, but does still provide a harbor for beneficial bacteria, and even has some lymphode tissue.



Would you like to learn how we know about psuedogenes?



As you learned, the creationist notion of Neanderals being apes and not human, was completely wrong. And recent evolutionist investigations of their DNA demonstrate that far from the brutish apelike creature creationists imagined, they are a subspecies of our own H. sapiens.

But again, your biggest error is to assume the production of C-14 in plant matter would end during a worldwide flood. Since most photosynthesis goes on in the sea, it would actually increase.

Gods word says that there was a global flood.

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


everready
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear everready,

Very good post! I would guess that the trees died also; but Noah sent out a bird who came back with a sprig of plant life in it's beak finally. That could mean a new sprig of new plant growth. I really don't think the trees lived through it all. Of course, trees upon mountaintops may have survived it all. Yes, I think that would have been possible. What's your take on this?

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael
 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Alwight,

How're you doing 2nite?? I just got on a minute ago. I was on Twitter for like, an hour! I do hope you are in good spirits!! I was just talking about the global flood long ago. Noah's Flood or the Epic of Gilgamesh, whatever. I'm thinking that, before the great flood, the tectonic plates were arranged differently and there was sort of two continents and maybe a couple islands, etc. You know how the borders sort of line up with the continents? Do you understand what I mean here? That means that in the great flood, only two continents were involved. It's just a theory. Well, I should get going! You have a wonderful day ahead of you, Alwight!!

Cheerio & Best Wishes,

Michael
 

alwight

New member
Dear Alwight,

How're you doing 2nite?? I just got on a minute ago. I was on Twitter for like, an hour! I do hope you are in good spirits!! I was just talking about the global flood long ago. Noah's Flood or the Epic of Gilgamesh, whatever. I'm thinking that, before the great flood, the tectonic plates were arranged differently and there was sort of two continents and maybe a couple islands, etc. You know how the borders sort of line up with the continents? Do you understand what I mean here? That means that in the great flood, only two continents were involved. It's just a theory. Well, I should get going! You have a wonderful day ahead of you, Alwight!!

Cheerio & Best Wishes,

Michael
Ancient people had no concept of the entire world Michael, any recorded flooding events could only have been local for them. They had even less clue about plate tectonics.
Africa fits with South America while north west Scotland seems to have been joined to Nova Scotia at one time, making it more like Olde Scotland perhaps. None of this happened over night or in a few thousand years, the Earth is clearly very old Michael.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Gods word says that there was a global flood.

It does not. You've simply added "global" to the Bible to make it fit your own wishes.

The word in the Bible was "ersatz", which means "land." It is used for the land of Israel, for example.

You've changed His word to fit your new doctrine.
 
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